1.0.10 Patch Notes

Official Announcements
#41

Not been able to test yet so here is my feedback based on the patchnotes regarding the 1.0.9 games I played:

Noble:
I think current Noble would be fine, if Aristrocat did not have hearsay.
In my opinion either royal decree or order could be replaced by the old Town Crier skill. This would make it possible for the Noble to give out messages from hearsay anonymously to everyone and get people to give more info/ fake news to the Noble.

Court Wizard:
I don’t like having too many unique classes, but Court Wizard in the current state was necessary to become unique. Tornado just caused too much issues. Especially if a game had 2 CW and a Ritualist the nights were just mayhem.

King:
I actually think the royal blood check was not that bad. Kings did not get executed 90% of the time at n4 anymore. It prevented princess claims by Masterminds too. The problem was that the patch that brought these royal blood checks at the same time instantly nerfed the ability, since assassin and CL were able to keep their royal blood. I think people would have gotten used to that king after a while and changed their playstyle according to it.
I’m interested to see what will happen with the King in these changes, since all Faction kings are equal now. I just hope people won’t revert to their lynch king by n4 mentality.

Psy:
Well I did not see that coming. And it sounds really confusing. I hope that both Psy don’t share the same rooms, or it will be exactly like the Psy in 1.0.7. With two people in Psychat they don’t want to reveal roles. And one psy can accidently out the other psy by linking him. Anyway the Chat at night will be really confusing no matter how these two psy chats are handled in the game.
No idea where that change came from too, only plausible reason I could see is that the Inquisitor kills the Psy? Psy being unique was nice.

Additional Feedback not related to this Patch:

  • Sorcerer should get an easier way to kill the Inquisitor. Inquisitor is almost untouchable right now.
  • Maybe consider making the other Neutral Killers also Evil Kings like Sorcerer. This way BD won’t push for NK to become King anymore
  • I think the other classes are in a good place right now. The current Deathknight is fine too.
#42

Well. Now its not valid for a Social/Support Unseen/Cult to claim neutral now… feels bad man.

#43

Yeah that is good solution, despite Reaper and Possessor doesn’t work together with Unseen directly.

1 Like
#44

@anon98616575 1. i don’t complain on every patch. I have disliked some of the more recent patches, yes.

  1. even if I did it is just the parts I don’t like, ZI don’t think there has been a single patch I hated everything from
#45

So, the Allies thing…

This is really difficult to balance. The starting King has a higher probability to be Evil than a random member of court. Because of this, the starting king needs an ability powerful enough for BD to feel that risk is worth it. But, it can’t be so powerful it’s leading to BD sitting back and expecting the King to carry the game for them, nor so powerful that the King’s alignment determines games by itself. We also don’t want the NK meta to be “Kill King N1” every game, like it was.

That’s a really hard thing to balance, and it’s probably going to take a lot of experimentation to find the sweet spot. Because of this, I don’t necessarily have an opinion on if Royal Blood allies or the current Allies is better, but rather I think things are changing far too quickly. I felt the same way about the Priest, getting multiple patchs and then removed in the span of a week. It takes a lot of time for changes to sink in and for the community to react, and the King is even moreso effected by the playerbases’ attitude. They need time to digest the changes. I don’t really think we got a fair showing of if Royal Blood checks was really a good thing or not.

7 Likes
#46

^ solid post as always, Moxie.

This is the core issue. Everyone needs to read your post.

We should have let the Royal Blood ability settle first. I personally didn’t even get a chance to try it out before it changed back again.

Patches and tweaks are welcome, but when they come so frequently that the dust doesn’t even settle, it gives no reliable feedback or indication of effectiveness. Patches need to slow down.

1 Like
#47

While i think its amazing how the balance team is so active and listens to community feed back i don’t think you guys should be caving in when people bitch about things they don’t know about. The king being able to instantly out 4 people on top of being impossible to kill early in the game is a terrible combination that made playing neutrals and evils really bad. Being able to find royals may not have been the most exciting thing but it was a step in the right direction.

7 Likes
#48

I think we could reasonably change it into

Betrayal Investigation (4 uses(starting King)/1 use(other King)):Anyone who attacked someone protected by your guards will be classified as traitor .Starting King:Attacks under possession are ignored, converted Blue Dragon will show up as traitors.

That is still high power, but you have to deal with the starting evils being hidden(unless they attack you), and a new king will have a seriously crippled ability.

#49

I wouldn’t be opposed to giving Royal Allies more time in the wild, but I assume it got changed for a reason.

Noble… couldn’t be changed fast enough. My first 2 games were both Noble and after being spammed insults and random crap from people I couldn’t report I never wanted to play the class again.

#50

There were tons of complaints in-game about the new ability. We cannot ignore that.

Personally, I like the faction check a bit more, mostly because Royal Blood does so little, it
makes the King not feel very special anymore.

But I get it why the more veteran players dislike the strong investigative ability of the King.

What do you think of this suggestion for ‘Allies’? What if the King only considers other Noble people to be potential allies?
It combines the old and the new.

Allies
If a character has Royal Blood, discover what faction it belongs to.

Possible feedback:
13 is a member of the Blue Dragon.
13 is a member of the Cult!
13 is a member of the Unseen!
13 has no Royal Blood.

Framed targets would always show as Cult/Unseen.

4 Likes
#51

That’s actually not a bad idea.

I’d rather see the King get a strong Social role, but that’s better than this

#52

Edit: Thanks for the update that gives Inquis only limited night immunity, going to test out that change, so the below is no longer current. Left for the record.

Just wanted to talk a bit about about a common and frustrating end game state in Sorc / Inquisitor games.

Yeah it has been said already, the inquis is far too easy to win and there is little counterplay available for the sorc, but this post isn’t really about that.

My issue is that the inquisitor has far too much influence on who wins a game. I frequently arrive at end game states in sorc/inquis games where the remaining people are some permutation of: 1 king, 2 evil faction members and an inquisitor. In such a situation the inquisitor is the deciding vote that determines the winning faction, and that doesn’t really feel right. I don’t think this situation is quite the same as an alch left standing, since the alch has to survive to win and there are ways to eliminate or otherwise deal with an alch too strongly aligned to any faction. The inquis on the other hand literally does not care and just arbitrarily decides who wins the game.

See, the problem is that most games will end with an inquisitor still alive. They are very hard to kill, and both BD and evil factions have little incentive to execute an inquisitor once they are confirmed. BD will always rather spend time finding evil and would never execute an inquis, and evil would look incredibly suspect trying to get a confirmed inquisitor executed. Because of that, executing an inquisitor is not a viable option, they are almost always left alive at end game, with the only possible counter play being poison/bleed.

I think that one possible solution is to not allow the inquisitor to accuse or vote once he has won the game. It really feels like if MM + Assassin are left alive vs a king, the win should be Unseen’s – same deal with the cult. As things currently stand, the only way to win with 100% certainty against a good king + inquis is to have a full roster of 3 members of unseen, it seems pretty ridiculous to expect that in order to have a win.

Perhaps once the inquisitor vs sorcerer balance itself is fixed, we will see less end games where the inquis is left standing, but as things are I think they have far too much influence on the outcome and should not be the deciding factor, it feels really wrong.

2 Likes
#53

I think Ulkesh’s idea would be good with infinity uses. Also this should for every King, not only starting one.

#54

No. Allies buffs the King to increase their survivability- makes BD think twice about executing a potential investigator. Kings who step up should not get that one. At least not with full power.

1 Like
#55

It is supposed to be a nerf, to make the King less about investigation. But not as big a nerf as the initial Royal Blood ability was.

I think 4 uses is a good amount. It should most definitely not transfer to any new kings. This makes the initial king too disposable. And it would make the king about investigations for the entire game, which is not the intent at all.

#56

Alright, so I’m no expert game designer, but I’d like to discuss “Allies” just a bit.

So as it currently stands, “Allies” is probably the strongest ability in the game. It instantly can check a player’s faction, which is only matched by Observer. King also has twice the charges to observer. This is obviously incredibly strong, and can mean the lose condition for a Neutral is just “be checked by the King”. However this isn’t exactly the case. This is more how the meta has evolved around the King and the “Neuts out” meta. Kings also had to be concerned with potential fool executions and killing alchs who typically side with the King no matter what. And this has rarely been a problem for Unseen/Cult, as they can convert players to regrow, and already deal with Sheriffs/Paladins.

The recent change to “Allies” made it so King could only detect Royal Blood. The major problem with this ability is that it’s incredibly underwhelming.You can confirm Drunk/Princess claims, but that’s about all this ability was useful for. And I think given time, this ability would have been completely useless, as neutral/evil roles would start claiming not royal roles as to not be found out. Drunk claims are already impossible with the new changes to Drunk anyway. And the other problem is that with this version of “Allies” I can only see the King meta evolving two ways. Either you kill off the king d2 and try to put up a person sooner to have a confirmed BD King or the King never dies because no one cares about the King. Yes “Point the Finger” is really strong late game, but as it currently stands, everyone can just ignore the King, and the King has literally nothing to do except watch the game unfold and figure out who is Royal. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but everything about this version of “Allies” seemed to make King go the way of Noble: being really boring.

So as it stands, I think strong “Allies” is better than the Royal version. I saw a suggestion earlier saying Neuts should show up as Not Evil, along with BD, which I’m unsure of, because that basically turns King into a Sheriff/Paladin with limited checks. I really do think a powerful King is much better for this game, but obviously that’s personal opinion. I’m excited to see how this gets expanded.

#57

Honestly I think that more people should be worrying about the Hunter change.

Before if you were Reaper with 5 souls you could gather darkness and safely kill the hunter. If you were unseen you could use your enforcer’s 1 time use ability to trade blows with the hunter (sometimes a good idea). Now both of these will fail and that isn’t a good thing.

To be honest I don’t like ANY of the changes in this patch. Allies is a problem again, noble is gone, CW is impassable to claim cuz a CC will kill you. 2 Psychics can get really confusing and is unfair for the Poss. Plus the fact that 2 psychics can instantly confirm each other through the dead.

1 Like
#58

Oh is that what the Hunter change means?

Dang, that sounds kind of bad

1 Like
#59

I thought it was just a bug fix. Before this patch Hunter bears would let the Hunter die (and maybe even be converted).
They’d kill attackers, but the Hunter would still die. It also stripped Night Immunity from everyone who visited. It was strange.

#60

Bear pierces night immunity and it still does