54321st Poster gets a cookie - mods are cute

Off-Topic (Thronepass)
#34068

The exact definition of “bastard” varies from person to person according to their likes and dislikes; however, the following traits are usually common.

  • The moderator lies to players, either in their Role PMs (as in False roles) or in their revealed information (as in Death Miller).
  • The game incorporates significant game-changing mechanics (Cult being a notorious example) that affects players who may not know about them.
  • The game incorporates roles that are inconvenient to play with, such as Voteless or Suicidal.

note: “Cult” here refers to conversion mechanics

some definitions expand ‘bastard’ to encompass anything that relies the moderator to lie for the player, including Godfather roles (such as the Mastermind) or framing effects, but altered flips and conversion are pretty much always considered bastard, even if they’re known in advance to exist

#34069

Does it really make sense to call an open setup which is explicitely all around conversion bastard because of conversion?

In a closed setup, sure, but closed setups have to `have very tight rules or they are bastard per sé.

But open setups?

#34070

It’s always bastard when the host is lying to the players
But is it really bastard when the host is explicitely telling the players that their results may be altered by certain classes, in an open setup?

#34071

yes

that’s not inherently a bad thing

#34072

Bastard is for me “host lies to the players for his own delight”, and yes, that’s inherently a bad thing

Because you should never host for yourself, you should always host to provide your players as much fun as possible.

(in case a bastard game is only for the fun of the players and its known in advance, it’s cool tho)

#34073

I have 100h+ game mastering hours in irl roleplaying games, I’m always comparing it with that. There are nice GMs who are hosting for their players’ fun… and there are bastard GMs who are forging the rolls just to give their girlfriend an advantage over the other players.

#34074

see the thing is only basic bitch bastard hosts make games that have inconsistent rules
what i see a good bastard game as being is using your loosened limits to provide a setup in which part of the entertainment is deciphering the strange mechanics and learning how to twist them to your advantage.

1 Like
#34075

basically there are set rules and such
but those rules are esoteric and difficult (but not impossible!) to intuit and deduce

#34076

oh yeah and also a maximum allowance of exactly one mechanic solely for your own entertainment, so long as the players would theoretically find it funny too because it’s inconsequiential in the grander scheme of thegame

#34077

Yeah but calling an open setup with all rules open knowledge bastard, as Arete did, sounds not like what “bastard game” means

#34078

yeah personally conversion is a bastard-adjacent mechanic
i would under no circumstances call ToL or FoL bastard
it just uses some elements traditionally used in bastard games to create a distinctly non-bastard experience

1 Like
#34079

an example of a bastard open setup would be Blood on the Clocktower (pretty much all 3 setups)
but i adore BotC, and i won’t let anybody touch it until it finally delivers

1 Like
#34080

Yes but Thats not What is Usually meant by bastard

#34081

Your insights to that topic are very ineresting

#34082

yeah but the original definition is used by people whoose favourite setup is mountainous, so tbh i don’t care

#34083

basically I think simon is right to say that there should be a different definition for more restrained bastard games, but i refuse to call them Clown Games.

i’ll get into this topic more once "ToL"FM is over.

#34084

Joker games

#34085

we really do live in a society

1 Like
#34086

Society games

#34087

finally, a werewolf game that real GAMERS can play

1 Like