54321st Poster gets a cookie - mods are cute

[Icibalus]

at least that’s how I see it

[Margaret]

Convert to La Vey Satanism, we believe just in values

[Solic]

What kind of moral absolutes do you go by then, assuming that you are a moral absolutist?

[Marcus_Doodalee]

@Icibalus

Yes. In a case of “lesser of two evils” the lesser evil is no longer evil because it is the only choice. there’s no fixed value of how moral or immoral an action is from my perspective and it’s only found in relation to the morality of other choices

I disagree with this premise

@Icibalus

we don’t have a reliable metric of telling whether they are or not 100% of the time. there are some which we can intiuitively tell but they are usually caused by mental disorders or insanity or something not even having a mind

I’d argue that most moral dilemmas are intuitively able for us to tell, it is the fringe cases that are not so clear cut and need to be debated.

[Icibalus]

But that’s what I’m saying. Moral absoloutism utterly fails once it gets to a certain threshold of moral complexity because it eventually will encouter a scenario where it will make the obviously incorrect choice

[Margaret]

This can all be absolved by becoming a member of my religion

[Marcus_Doodalee]

For the lesser evil thing I’d like to borrow an example from history.

Maxmillian Kolbe was a catholic priest held in Auschwitz, I think what happened was some prisoners escaped So the officers decided to punish the prisoners by choosing 10 prisoners at random to be starved to death in bunkers. During this process one man broke down talking about how he had a family to go back and children etc. Fr Kolbe steps forward and asks to take his place, citing how he has no family or children.

Do you mind if we discuss this example talking about moral absolutism/relativism?

[Icibalus]

isn’t it obvious Kolbe is doinig the brave and moral thing there?

[Marcus_Doodalee]

Of course. Would he be any more/less evil had he not done it?

[Icibalus]

No, he wouldn’t be evil but he wouldn’t be good.

[Icibalus]

uruuuurgh my head’s being broken now because it’s hard to explain with boht moral posiitions why it’s not immoral to do nothing there

[Firekitten]

this is some interesting stuff tbh

[Marcus_Doodalee]

Its absolutely not immoral to do nothing here. A moral evil is being committed, [10 people are being sentenced to death] the alternative [9 people are being sentenced to death, one takes another’s place net 10 people being sentenced to death] is an equal moral evil.

It’s 10:30pm, I’m not sure what I intended to gauge from using this argument, I was hoping for something.

@Icibalus

But that’s what I’m saying. Moral absoloutism utterly fails once it gets to a certain threshold of moral complexity because it eventually will encouter a scenario where it will make the obviously incorrect choice

I believe this clears your position further.

[Marcus_Doodalee]

@Icibalus

moral complexity because it eventually will encouter a scenario where it will make the obviously incorrect choice

But moral absolutism by definition will be the right decision regardless of who or what circumstances surround them

[Marcus_Doodalee]

It was the wrong decision for Adam and Eve to pick the apple, even though they were unaware of the consequences.

[Marcus_Doodalee]

Aaaanyway I should probably head to bed soon, if anyone wants to have a robust discussion further I’m more than happy to respond to DMs provided they are civilised. I apologise if I have misunderstood any of the arguments presented to me and that it will not affect whether or not you choose to revisit these topics again.

[Icibalus]

so what you’re saying is that what I see as being relativistic you see as being semi-absolutistic in all but name and the other way around is still true

[Icibalus]

and that morality isn’t absolute or relative it’s both

[Marcus_Doodalee]

I had to post this here.

[Marcus_Doodalee]

In all moral dilemmas there is a right and a wrong; I just don’t know it yet!