A tangible set of classes that appear

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Throne of Lies is very random. There is a random number of most Blue Dragon, making it hard to deduce things about people’s classes. You only have uniqueness to run on, and few classes are unique. So I would suggest a list that you can use process of elimination. For example:

1 King
1 Prince
1+ Sheriff/Paladin
1+ Physician
1 Investigative
2 Support/Social
2 Killing/Offensive
0-2 Random

2 Cult/Unseen

1 Neutral Killing
1-3 Other Neutral

Or something similar. But this would give the Blue Dragon more ways to deduce who is evil, since it isn’t chaos like it is now. There can be Physicians, or none. You can rely on nothing. I also recommend guaranteeing Physician, since both Cult and Unseen can get extra kills from Nightshade or Bleeding without healers.

#2

But that’s like what ToS does, we’re ToL, and besides, it’s more fun and unpredictable not having a set class list. And people would claim by looking at the list by playing sudoku

Match what role has been taken, match what hasn’t, and it’ll be too easy for BD

3 Likes
#3

No way. A large part of the challenge from the game comes from the uncertainty of what classes are in the game. While there should be some guidelines so it isn’t completely all any we already have those.

3 Likes
#4

Also this makes PoE far too easy. Especially in Unseen games where MM is never in one of the BD in the list.

1 Like
#5

I mean, maybe there’ll be a beginner’s version with a limited amount of basic classes and a set class list but real ToL is special because of what it is.
And BD wins at least 50% of the time from what I’ve seen, and with actual data, it would probably be higher.

1 Like
#6

Also I would like to point out that there are 0 offensive slots on that list.

#7

ToS doesn’t do a bad thing with the role list. It makes the game more skill based. Some uncertainty is good, but if you have nothing to go on, it isn’t very fun. It definitely needs to be balanced with this change, but I think it would improve the game.

Sorry, I forgot the offense slots.

#8

I think your misunderstanding what kind of effect this type of change would have. It would make the game a play by numbers game. While that might be fun for a bit it eventually gets to a point where the BD have solved the game even on the lower levels.

For example if there is 1 Butler claim and 1 Drunk claim then you know for a fact that one is lying. Simply have the drunk HH someone and evil found.

That may sound skill based but the possablety of both being good means that you have to either use a night to Investigate them (requiring the trust of the Investigator which itself requires skill from the scumreaders and from the invest claim) or you need to scumread them properly and see if any of them have done anything suspicious and act accordingly.

#9

Let’s just say that a counterclaim is the least interesting way to find an evil unless it’s on his own terms

1 Like
#10

The solution is to have random Blue Dragons. That way there aren’t always 2 Social classes. It lends itself to deduction, without making it by the numbers. The list above should probably have more than 1 random.

#11

How about we have 9 of them and make 2 of those potentially spawn Neutrals?

#12

It makes it so that as town, if you follow the formula without making any mistakes, town has a 95% chance of winning. Of course in reality there is a 15% chance of 1 townie doing something really stupid or gamethrowing (I’m assuming high ELO ranked, obviously in ranked practice that’s closer to 40%), then a 4% chance of just a rediculously lucky alignment of roles to make town incapable of seeing through things, and a 1% chance that you can actually effect the game as evil, still leading to a really stale 80% town winrate.

All that being said, throne of lies currently is actually MORE vulnerable to PoE than town of salem… protected only by the lack of a ranked mode. With most classes leaving detectable events, only like 3-4 possible claims for anyone but the converted forms of classes. The last thing the game needs is something to make PoE more optimal.

2 Likes
#13

33/10 idea, put it into the game right now, on top of the currently spawning 9 random BD with the potential of 2 being Neuts

1 Like
#14

I have no objection to extra neutrals.

#15

@NuclearBurrito was basically saying the current amount of Blue Dragon in every single game, and that’s done perfectly fine for us in my opinion

1 Like
#16

I added the suggestion

#17

Still far to restrictive. Make everything random (exept for evils, sheriff/pally, prince and king) and you have a deal. At most have there definitely be a healer (phys or Alch)

#18

More importantly in my mind is just how powerful it is to have a class be guarenteed. If you know a class exists and someone claims it unCCed then you know they are telling the truth (or that they are on a scum team with them which has the same effect as being that classes converted version exept it’s easier to prove).

1 Like
#19

Nooooooo. This is a terrible idea (even though it strives to mindlessly copy ToS, ToS itself recently revised its Ranked list to make it less restrictive, precisely because they realized how many problems this sort of setup causes.) The practical result of this is to limit claimspace for evils, which is already far too low.

This suggestion would make the game involve drastically less skill, since it would be far easier for BD to determine who people are by elimination. It would make games more repetitive and less interesting, reducing tactical depth. And the basic premise (that BD is currently having trouble deducing people’s roles) is flatly and completely wrong - it is, if anything, currently far too easy for BD to determine roles, and far too hard for anyone who starts without a valid BD role to put forwards a fakeclaim that can pass inspection.

Everything in this thread is awful; this is, the single worst suggestion I’ve seen on the forum. Let it die its well-deserved death. It would make the game worse in every way, without any benefits whatsoever, and the basic premise that it is attempting to achieve (making the game easier and less thought-intensive for BD by allowing them to mechanically brute-force solutions, while removing claimspace from evils) is actively bad.

PS. I won’t be reading or responding to any replies to this post, since I feel that this suggestion is so awful and would do such severe damage to the game that it’s important to let the thread die due to lack of replies. I urge everyone else to stop replying as well. Suggestions that are so obviously terrible shouldn’t get discussions as if they’re something worth taking seriously, since the very act of seeing something discussed can convince developers that it needs to be addressed in some way, and this suggestion just needs to drop dead and be forgotten forever. There’s nothing of value in this thread and, given that the suggestion it started with was so terrible to begin with, no hope that there could ever be anything, so we ought to just move on.

1 Like
#20

It is hard to avoid counter claims when the class list, but I think this is much less of a problem with conversion, since if you are converted, you take up the same space. It’s harder as starting cult/unseen, since you don’t have the space, but I think deduction is an important part of the game. In addition, you can sometimes use your allies claim space. The biggest problem I think is Neutral Killing, with the possible exception of Possessor, since they are stuck space less.

I’ve also tried to loosen it up a bit by merging Social and Support, as well as Killing and Offensive.