Attempting to fix all the boring classes

Many classes are boring to play, and I think I can fix them without unbalancing the game. I have likely overlooked many critical points, and I look forward to hearing about how bad all these ideas are.

–PHYSICIAN–
PROBLEM: Healing is powerful, but also overly simple. Rarely is target choice an interesting decision, and that ability is supposed to define the class. Same goes for revive; the ideal timing is somewhat situational, but it’s fairly safe just to fire it off whenever.
SOLUTION: Remove the Physician and redistribute aspects of this class.

–ALCHEMIST–
PROBLEM: Neuts out! Many Alchemists die to investigative kings, and others are often executed even after an open discussion of role. This should be an interesting class where you try to take an objectively neutral position while demonstrating potential value to both sides.
SOLUTION: With Physician gone, you’re the only source of the full heal ability. Guarantee at least one Alchemist in each game to make up for it. This also makes claiming Alchemist at least a tiny more likely to forestall accusations.

–BUTLER–
PROBLEM: Early on you just randomly occupy people hoping to find occupy immune players. Sometimes you can glean information if there are no deaths one night, but it’s unlikely and difficult to verify without an investigator.
SOLUTION: Add ability “Tend Wounds.” Infinite uses at night. You target a player and remove any bleeding or poisoned conditions. Does not protect from attacks.

–COURT WIZARD–
PROBLEM: Recharge isn’t particularly fun, and many classes don’t make great use of it. Ice Ward alone does not make for a particularly engaging class experience.
SOLUTION: Add ability “Necromancy.” Identical to Physician’s revive.

–HUNTER–
PROBLEM: Most nights, especially early, you just sit quietly and wait. Deciding who to wolf is interesting, and baiting the scum into attacking into a bear is a skill, but those don’t become particularly relevant until several turns into the game.
SOLUTION: Add ability “Track Footprints.” Infinite uses at night. You target a player and learn the classes - but not numbers - of those that visited the target.

–KNIGHT–
PROBLEM: Optimal use of your main ability removes you from the game.
SOLUTION: If someone attacks into a knight, instead of both players dying, they both gain a bleed effect that will kill them at the end of the following night if not healed. This adds an interesting social dynamic to the next day, as the knight and attacker may have to argue over who is the real knight. Also adds to the healers vs. bleeders subgame.

–NOBLE–
PROBLEM: All of your abilities are low impact and nearly useless until the last couple nights.
SOLUTION: Return the “Maid Spy” day ability in place of “Political Pressure.” Increase bonus of “Noble Twin” to count as three votes. “Maid Spy” is one of the most fun abilities in the game, and buffing “Political Pressure” truly allows you to become the master of the voting process.

–POSSESSOR–
PROBLEM: It’s incredibly difficult to win, and tends to be very obvious when you change bodies.
SOLUTION: When you change bodies via “Possess,” the death announcement of your former body picks a random BD or neutral class that is not at capacity in the current game instead of revealing your former possessor identity. While it may still be clear to astute players that you may still be alive, it generates some doubt and can create interesting conversations.

–SCORNED–
PROBLEM: It’s easy to win by luck if one of your targets is naturally suspicious. Additionally, the BD have no real incentive to try to stop you from winning like they do with the Fool, outside of avoiding the execution of BD targets, which they already do.
SOLUTION: Remove Scorned, replace it with the Traitor…

Traitor (Neutral / Social)
The Traitor loses if they die and are still the Traitor.
If the Traitor is elected king, there is a 50% chance they will become evil instead of remaining netural. The Traitor now gains the victory conditions of their new class.
DAY: Trollbox
NIGHT: Trace Bloodline - Reveal if a target has royal blood.
NIGHT: Incriminate - Target appears suspicious to investigative classes, but only if they have royal blood. Does not confirm the presence of royal blood.
If it is too difficult as designed, you could replace “Trace Bloodline” with a passive that tells you at the start of the game which players are of royal blood.
If anyone knows the term for a jealous, younger prince/princess who covets the claim of the oldest heir, that would be a better class name.

What does necromancy do? Also hunter is not supposed to investigate and butler shouldn’t heal since it doesn’t support it is something offensive.

1 Like

The problem of boring classes is clearly there and it’s one of most important ones. Some of your ideas though break the convention of splitting classes into groups of: support, offensive, killer, special, etc. But! I totally agree with that.

I actually think, devs should rework the concept and provide almost EVERY class an opportunity for gathering info. It could be great solution to many problem just to give every class 1 “investigative-like skill” and other 1 defining type of their class. Cause investigating is fun and most crucial part of game, yet only few classes have it. Noone says “observer is boring” or “sheriff is boring”.

I also would lead to more fun decision-making. “Should I heal/protect somebody or better check the possible suspect?”

In what part does players not do is deducing who is scum. you don’t need to rely on your abilities to find scum.

2 Likes

Everybody says “you don’t need abilities to find scum”. And yet everybody after 10 days game have in log literally 0 information, if they’re not prince, princess or sheriff.

Also, “you don’t need any abilities to find scum” doesn’t work. You tell people you suspect somebody - they want to hear ur class, see ur log and understand reasoning. You can’t convince masses of people other way. Even if you found somebody very suspicious - when u claim being just a physician/drunk - they’ll execute you insead. And later report for “gamethrowing”, because u dared to suspect anyone while being non-investigative class.

I mean that part for not needing info is a bit true due to scum reads but they can sometimes turn out to lead into a fool so yeah info is important and scum reading is important.

This is super true. Let’s say i find out with my scum reading skills that 12 is likely unseen. If i vote him, and the dude puts up a decent defense, then they will pardon and mass vote me asking my proof. If i say i was phys, im getting voted out and possibly reported.

This game isn’t really about scum reading UNLESS you are an investigating role and you can backup your suspicion with an actual report.

1 Like

Never really came up against this , if I have reason to believe someone is scum ill tell other people why I think that and then ask the guy to claim etc. .
Nobody has ever said to me " oh well you don’t know because you are not Sherriff .
If the guy can say why he has done whatever and puts up a decent defense I don’t have an issue with it and if I get asked my role etc after that ill defend like a true blue dragon should , with honest and integrity .

Like I see 2 people vote to execute when the consensus was pardon , I am gonna say they are suspicious and ask why they did it and get a claim from them .

If you are gonna accuse though have your own ducks in order .As a BD you should have a good journal ready to drop on any strong counter claim

Another problem is, let’s say you say “Hey guys, i think its 13 because he pardonned the assassin”. Yes people are likely to actually follow you and put the person on the stand. But if he actually flips BD… then you’re very often gonna get exed.

There is a reason most players are very scared of outing suspicions with this community.

must be playing a different meta than me mate . Can’t remember this happening a lot to me at all .
If someone looks dodgy . no reports etc then he gets exed .
The big mistake I see most often is people don’t pardon enough if the claim looks legit .
going for a trial on someone is not the same as executing them.
It’s different if you are screaming he’s mm he’s mm .
If your just saying this seems a bit sus what does everyone think ?

I never said they don’t get exed. Reread my post. They do get exed, i agree with this. What my post said is, if you were wrong, then your likely to get exed.

You cant exe people by yourself you need a consensus .

so the flow is

You think [1] is suspect because he hasn’t said anything for 4 turns
You say : Guys I think [1] is a bit dodgy here , not heard anything from him for 4 turns
Everyone else votes [1] up
1 says that he doesn’t want to claim because he’s too important
Everyone exes 1 cos that is a weak as fuck defence
[1] is dead and a physician .

Are you saying at this point you would then normally expect to get hung as the next step the bd takes ?
If anyone tried accusing me at this point I would straight flip on them .

That was a weak defence and they all joined in the hanging . The fact they are pushing for you because you correctly pointed out that [1] was acting suspicious is indicating to me that your accuser might be scum .

In a second example

You think [1] is suspect because he hasn’t said anything for 4 turns
You say : Guys 1 is unseen ,I just know it , he acts so suspicious , kill him ,
Everyone else votes [1] up
1 states his case and shares his class and journal
You scream and shout that you think he’s lying and scream exe exe exe
Some people exes 1 because they are trusting you
[1] is dead and a physician .

Now here you are in a lot of trouble and look suspicious as fuck

It’s a “social deduction game” guys

If you can’t deduce who’s evil from your conversations maybe you should go elsewhere

I’ve literally never once rolled any investigative class (aside from Evil King) and I’ve still gotten plenty of Cult/Unseen hanged for their daytime actions.

Not having investigative abilities isn’t an issue with the game, it’s an issue with the player, plain and simple. A game where almost everybody has some sort of investigative abilities would swing into being no fun for the evil roles as you’re constantly called out. This would also remove a lot of the “social deduction” aspects of the game. If you think it’s hard to convince people to lynch people you don’t have definitive proof are scum now, imagine how hard it will be when most classes have investigative powers. Good luck.

As for the OP, I can’t say I support any of these ideas. Maybe I’m missing the merits of one or two, but some changes are already apparently coming down the pipeline that should fix some of these “issues” with solutions that are probably better. If you want to try and convince me of any particular idea, I’m all ears; however, as of right now I’m going to have to say I’m not in favor of any of these.

3 Likes

I think as well as part of balance you need to have some classes that might not be as interesting as others , we cant all be quarterbacks(handegg)/strikers(football)/goal attack(netball) all the time .

Ding ding, we got winner chicken dinner here.

I think as well as part of balance you need to have some classes that might not be as interesting as others

I get that not everyone gets to be the neutral killer, but why can’t everyone be a class with abilities that are challenging to use correctly?

They can, that’s not the “problem” brought up here

The “problem” that is being complained about here isn’t skill cieling, which is already fairly high for most roles, it’s how many buttons you get to click that do something

only one I agreed with

don’t make noble better than king

1 Like

your idea of being unable to convince people of your scumread doesn’t work for the following classes:

  • Knight (can cold steel)
  • Hunter (can wolf)
  • Prince (can execute)
  • Noble (can order)
  • Butler (can occupy)

All these classes have no investigative capability but their scum reading, but they don’t need to convince others of their scum read, they just act.

1 Like

Increase bonus of “Noble Twin” to count as three votes.

don’t make noble better than king

Noble’s ability is for voting to execute/pardon, king’s ability gives him more weight in the initial treason accusation. It’s apples and oranges.

All these classes have no investigative capability but their scum reading, but they don’t need to convince others of their scum read, they just act.

Noble’s payoff for a good scrumread is hilariously low impact when compared to the Knight/Prince (immdiate and total payoff), and even the Hunter (delayed payoff)/Butler (action-inefficient payoff).

It’s a “social deduction game” guys
If you can’t deduce who’s evil from your conversations maybe you should go elsewhere
I’ve literally never once rolled any investigative class (aside from Evil King) and I’ve still gotten plenty of Cult/Unseen hanged for their daytime actions.
Not having investigative abilities isn’t an issue with the game, it’s an issue with the player, plain and simple. A game where almost everybody has some sort of investigative abilities would swing into being no fun for the evil roles as you’re constantly called out. This would also remove a lot of the “social deduction” aspects of the game. If you think it’s hard to convince people to lynch people you don’t have definitive proof are scum now, imagine how hard it will be when most classes have investigative powers. Good luck.
As for the OP, I can’t say I support any of these ideas. Maybe I’m missing the merits of one or two, but some changes are already apparently coming down the pipeline that should fix some of these “issues” with solutions that are probably better. If you want to try and convince me of any particular idea, I’m all ears; however, as of right now I’m going to have to say I’m not in favor of any of these.

I didn’t suggest handing out investigative powers all willy-nilly. The only ones I suggested are returning Maid Spy to the Noble and Track Footprints to the Hunter. I just wanted the Hunter to be able to do something when he’s still trying to play the social deduction game. I am admittedly not particularly gung-ho about the Track Footprints idea, it was just something thematically related to hunting that didn’t seem too gamebreaking. I’m very open to suggestions here.

The class most in need of help, by far, is the Noble. His abilities are mostly meaningless for a large part of the game. I like Maid Spy a lot, as it’s a very unique ability and only provides social feedback, not objective system feedback like other investigative abilities.

After that I would prioritize the Knight and Physician.

Cold Steel is a great ability, but Sacrifice generates very bad game feel. Why is my reward for success having to sit out the rest of the game?

Physician just feels like autopilot for most of the game. Early you’re largely just guessing (minor skill), but then mid game you usually just end up playing cleanup for whichever people say they’re bleeding.