[Class Suggestion] The Thief and the Rogue

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#21

Another Neutral that does not have to swear allegiance to any sides? I always love those!
Ok, let’s do this!! I’m hyped!

THE THIEF

  1. Great base idea! We need to have a thief in there, independently of if he’ll have this abilities or not. I believe you changed his goal from having prince and king dead of something like that? Aiming for the Royal Blood is way better! But I wanna suggest something bold here to make it truly an offensive class, because I think your suggestion is stuck in the middle of offensive / killer.

  2. Keep that goal. Keep it! You will understand why later.

  3. I don’t get the point of False Defiance and as of the moment I think it would greatly hurt the Thief instead of helping in any way. With that said, I’d like you to explain your idea around that passive before actually giving my opinion. I think I lack the information to really help with it.

  4. Proper Count is a must have.

  5. I also saw that you mixed some new ability with Distract. I actually think that just Distract would suffice here. Drugged Dagger honestly seems a bit too much. What was the other ability? I’m curious to hear about it!

  6. I don’t think Time Bomb matches the idea of the class. I would honestly take it out. However if you really like it, I’d suggest a change to Proximity Bomb. You plant a bomb in the players room, if they leave it, it will go off and prevent them from leaving.

  7. Spying Eyes is also a must have.

  8. I will adress Swift Shift in the Rogue part. For now, I’ll just say I would prefer it out.

  9. Robbery is the huge breaking point here. As much as I like it, I don’t. If this ability stayed as it is, it work much better as a passive. As soon as the last Royal Blood dies, you win and that message about the robbery appears in the chat. This is how I’d change it:
    Night ability 2 - Robbery: Occupy the target. If he’s a royal blood, he will be robbed of one use of his limited abilities. He will then count as a robbed target toward your goal and be reduced from the Proper Count passive.
    Yes! Your goal is to use robbery succesfully once in every Royal Blood or in an X number of Royal Bloods.

  10. I really like how the thief winning screws over everyone but I don’t think that should happen. The addition of the thief with that power would add even more steam to the Neuts Out policy. No one would EVER want to risk a thief winning. I think it’s good enough that the Royal Bloods will “bleed” from his presence.

THE ROGUE

  1. I love that the thief is convertable even though he already hurts BD. That’s new. That’s bold! I love bold ideas.

  2. I have mixed feeling about having that goal or maintaining Thief’s goal but the latter would require a lot of changes to your suggestion so let’s keep it that way!

  3. I get the feeling that Keen Sense is just…there. I don’t dislike it, but I also don’t like it. I don’t see it really matching the idea of the class. All in all, it’s not a bad passive and not an OP one. I have no problem with it being kept there as it helps the unseen with that little piece of information. I just really think it doesn’t match the class.

  4. If you followed my suggestion to take Time/Proximity Bomb out of the Thief, this is where you place it. Replacing Stealthy Gait with it. I think that with Keen Sense and Stealthy Gait you are trailing a path of investigation, where you should be going offensive. Proximity Bomb would be my go to.

  5. Deprive? Yes, please! This is exactly what I’m talking about here!!

  6. Sadly, on the other hand, it’s a no for Prying Eyes. I really feel like even though it is a very rogue-like ability, it doesn’t match what you are aiming to get. Or at least what I believe you are trying to get and I hope you get it. Remember I told you I’d adress Swift Shift later? So…
    Night ability 2 - Swift Shift: If someone attacks the Unseen tonight, choose someone who will take the damage instead. That person will only be attacked once and it will count as if you visited them to Observers and Princesses.

I think this is all. I was so happy to see you ask me for feedback. Feel free to do that always! Also thanks for the trust to allow me to help here. I hope I did. Let me know!

#22

It was a really good idea for me to ask you, thanks for the buttload of feedback I can work with!

First off:

  1. I was thinking that Time Bomb and Swift Shift would allow for indirect killing as well as allowing the Thief to survive throughout the game, but that just makes him complicated; I’ll stick to the Thief as being the possible first Neutral Offensive.

  2. I first had Distract as a Day ability for Thief, but then someone above in the feedback section suggested Icy Touch from the Reaper to be for the Thief as Distract usually does not do much unless extremely precise, so I decided to sort of merge the two with the “Dagger” theme I had going. I know that it seems a bit OP compared to Assassin but the Thief has to only rely on himself whereas the Assassin has the whole Unseen behind him. But I guess now that the Thief doesn’t need Royals dead, I can changed it back to Distract but it will still be called “Drugged Dagger” :slight_smile:

  3. I like your idea of Proximity Bomb, so yeah, I’ll switch out Time Bomb. Same goes for the False Defiance passive (Which was from someone else too; I’m just taking feedback and trying to fit it in best as possible from everybody)

  4. Your Robbery sounds really nice, so just let me take that please.

  5. I’ll take out that passive, as there is no way to tell if anyone is a Death Knight unless you are a physician who made it or end up on the wrong side of a sword. I really do prefer having passives for all classes, so if you have any ideas, please tell me.

  6. I mean, I like Prying Eyes, as the Rogue is sort of a sneaky fellow and can mess with wills, and the King’s is the most important. I’m taking inspiration from the Forger in Town of Salem. I’d prefer if that stayed. But I will bring Swift Shift from the Thief to the Rogue.

Thank you for your feedback and please give more so that I can make this stuff better.

2 Likes
#23

Nice!! I’m so glad I helped you that much!! I’ll be glad to give you as many feedbacks as you need! So let’s talk about the little parts of your answer that I feel like you asked me to take a closer look.

  1. I agree that Distract is underpowered and Icy Touch is kind of going further than you need. So you could think of a middle ground and make that the Drugged Dagger. I’d like you to make Drugged Dagger actually be a drugged dagger! I just googled some symptoms of being roofied. Drowsiness, Inability to talk, Confusion, Amnesia and more. A whole menu for you to choose from. Get one to be the drugged effect. Not choosing in-game but right here, right now. My go to would be Amnesia.
    Example: If you choose Amnesia, the target’s logbook is erased. Easy execution most of the time. Or will you believe in the “I swear, my logbook just got erased!” claim?
    Who needs silence when you can drug those royal bastards, am I right??

  2. I’m honestly honored you liked the Proximity Bomb and the new Robbery idea! :smiley:

  3. A passive for Rogue, huh? Sure, let’s get something there! I’m forcing myself to think about more than one option for you.

  • Passive: In the Shadows.
    Rogue’s visits are always hidden from investigative classes unless it’s a redirected attack with Swift Shift.

  • Passive: The Robin to your Hood.
    Rogue’s do no harm to Neutrals and Unseen. If he targets one or is redirected to one, he will get a message that he was prevented from visiting the target, with the exception of the Neutral Killer. This does not count for Swift Shift redirects.

It was kinda hard thinking about two but, what do you think of these?

  1. You want to keep Prying Eyes, we will make that happen! I think it just needs some improvement. Allow me to make a bold suggestion that follows the same base as I think you want?
    Day ability - Sleight of Hand (1):
    Quickly swap your journal with the King’s journal. He will be unable to edit it until the next day.
    How about that? There wouldn’t be any message or warning to the king, so there’s a chance he realizes it and warns everyone or a chance that he doesn’t see it until it’s too late. Also, “I just got my journal changed” isn’t something that you can write as quickly as “Poisoned”. Timing would be the thing with this skill.
#24

So thanks for replying again, I’m getting a ton of stuff from you.

So about Drugged Dagger: I’m only going to keep it the way I originally had it because erasing someone’s log is just a bit OP and annoying.

Sleight of Hand: I like your idea, but in my opinion, that’s basically Prying Eyes, as you’ll still need to write up a separate will and then apply it to the King, and this would allow for an Evil King to potentially communicate with Unseen, as Evil King is a bit difficult to use.

And for Passives, Robin Hood is quite nice, and is what I was trying to go for with the Thief, but the Rogue is his own man so
In the Shadows seems better to me in my opinion.

Thanks though.

2 Likes
#25

Bumping the thread; I’d like more people to ask how it is right now in its current state. Also going to add a new passive that would make converting this class far different from any other class.

#26

First of all please excuse my bad grammar English is not my mother-tongue.

I absolutely love both the Thief and the Rogue but I think the Thief should be an unconvertable neut because I in my personal opinion the skillsets and gameplay overall of both classes are too different in order to be a matching pair, f.e a Knight guards BD people or at least tries to, he gets converted -> he protects the unseen.

But from robbing the kingdom to eliminate the BD? I just dont think it matches. But instead of dismissing the rogue I’d love to see another concept from you that matches him better as an unconverted class than the thief.

Sorry for my English :frowning:

1 Like
#27

Oh ok, but would you care to expand more on your idea?

My thought was that the Thief would be a solo class, fend for himself and all that. But the Rogue would be of great help to the Unseen.

1 Like
#28

I think the skills of the rogue would match to a converted noble, or maybe change some of the skills slighty and make his BD class an investigative one, you can add me on discord if you want Supreme#2121

1 Like
#29

This seems a bit underpowered. Instead, change it so it works for the rest of the day, but make it only 3(or 2) uses. Also, it should prevent them from voting as people could use voting to signal that they have been drugged.

I like the idea, but omnipotent abilities aren’t good for the game. Change it to this:

Robbery(1 use(also change Spying Eyes so it gives a usage of Robbery back if they are a royal))(night)
Disable your targets passives for the night and occupy them. If they have any limited use abilities, deprive a usage from all of their limited use abilities by one. You will be notified of how many abilities you stole

This ability is fine, but the name should be changed since Mastermind already has an “in the shadows” passive. Unless you want to combine the two, which could work.

Change it to the modified robbery since it will no longer affect only royals. And make it 2 uses instead.

Everything else is fine.

#30

Dude, this has changed so much that we’re gonna need another overview lmao!

I’m going to try to make this quick and thorough.
His passives are great, I love how you organized Keen Sense.

In early stages, we had the problem of underpowering, now you kind of went overboard. First off, using this in the trial means execution. Plain and simple like that. No logs, no defense, execute. So that needs to go out. That’s suggestion number one. Suggestion number two, on the other hand, tells you to limit this use to a one time only, since this helps you guarantee a noble kill on trial.

One thought about this ability and his passive Keen Eyes, if by some rotten luck both your Thief and your Priest get added to the game, Keen Eyes count should go up every time Priest recharges the ability of a Royal you stolen from. Priest OP!

Stagnancy is okay and matches his other passive. However, both of them could be tweaked and blended into one which would say (in better words, please) that the Rogue doesn’t count toward the maximum unseen limit and that he will only become the assassin, in the absence of one, until a new one is converted. The name of the passive would remain Shadowform. So Stagnancy would only be attached to it.
What would that mean? It means almost exactly what you meant, with a little tweak. Now, instead of Rogue just turning into assassin when he’s alone, he would also be a Shadowform Assassin in games where it’s only him and the MasterMind. However, as soon as the MasterMind converts someone, that person would be the new Assassin and the Rogue would go back to his original form.

I know I probably agreed with this in earlier stages but… let’s make it from one of their limited use abilities? Same mechanics as your other class, by default it’s the first one, if it’s unlimited or has 0 charges, it targets the second one.

#31

Okay, Drugged Dagger can’t be used during a trial, yeah I didn’t realize that whooops.

And okay, I’ll combine the passives of the Rogue, which allows for Deprive to become a killing ability for the Shadowform Rogue

#32

Looks beautiful now! Tell me when it changes again and I’ll come back!!

Awesome 2018 to you, my friend! We’ll see each other around!! (Yes, I will repeat messages like that in all your classes lmao)

2 Likes
#33

Bump this for 1.0.18 use, going to start clearing away most everything that’s not needed, would like to see more feedback for this in the current meta

2 Likes
#34

Have robbery have the same effect as deprive with the ability removal mechanic.

1 Like
#35

Other than that it’s good.

#36

Alright, what else? Investigative or Offensive?

1 Like
#37

Keen sence should say it gives him convert Immunity when it hits 0.

And offensive (isn’t robbery supposed to be limited but rechargable by keen eyes?)

#38

Oh yeah true, okay, and then what are we going to do about a Neutral Investigative class?

#39

https://forum.imperium42.com/t/class-suggestion-the-accomplice-neutral-investigative/49396/28

#40

Robbing isn’t too powerful on Drunk, Noble, or Princess. You just lose one Happy Hour, Snoop, or WoW which is inconvenient, but not a big deal.

Taking a Prince execute is okay.

I think it would be better to just have the Royals killed.