Cult vs Black Rose: Hardcounters

Right now, the Cult is almost undeniably weaker than the Black Rose. This stems from many sources, but the main one I’d like to touch on today are the Blue Dragon roles to hardcounter each faction, the Paladin and the Sheriff.

For the first three nights, the Sheriff is essentially trying to find the Assassin, only being otherwise able to find the converted Black Rose member, who is replacable, until the midgame. Posse Comitatus is decently strong, but can backfire easily, has many restrictions, and saps the BD of other abilities to gain a Knight, which is probably not worth it in some circumstances.

The Paladin, on the other hand, is an unstoppable beast that can murder Cultists faster than they can spread AND protect people from being converted altogether. Try to convert the Paladin? Nope. Try to roleblock the Paladin? Good luck. Try to kill him? You’re dead instead. The Paladin is a God amongst men, leaving only death and despair in his wake.

The massive power disparity between these two roles certainly has an impact on their strength. The Cult is hamstrung by the Paladin, whilst the Black Rose finds the Sheriff a minor annoyance at worst. Adding in the fact that most Blackrose members have an easier time claiming their previous BD role than Cultists (since confirming yourself is so easy as most BD roles), the Cult feels hopeless where the Blackrose might stand a chance.

Therefore, I suggest a few things. First, the Paladin should spawn in Black Rose games, and the Sheriff should spawn in Cult games. Since the Mastermind is night immune, this should pose less of a threat to the BR than the Cult (and if it’s still an issue, the simple answer is to buff the Mastermind by removing its conversion cooldown but keeping the 3 BR cap). Secondly, the Paladin’s day ability to protect somebody from conversion should be given to the Sheriff, as he’s far more likely to see conversions. Just re-write the lore into him sending somebody to watch their room or something. Lastly, remove Zeal from the Paladin - making the hardcounter roles impossible to play around is bad game design, and leaves the player feeling helpless when instead they could set up an elaborate plan to purposefully convert a roleblocker to stop their hardcounter role.

These changes should help to bring the BR and Cult more in line power-wise without touching the many roles in either faction by levelling the playing field between them and their hardcounter role. The Cult also really needs another buff, such as replacing the random starting Cult member with one with special powers to help the Cult along or having the Any always roll a third starting Cultist (both due to their slow conversion speed and requirement to kill a member to gain one, even if I prefer the first solution). Either way, this is I change that I feel must be made if the Cult and Black Rose are ever to be more threatening than the NK.

2 Likes

NKs are crap too.

Are you kidding?

The Reaper has immense potential power, and the Possessor is actually one of the stronger roles in the game. They’re both quite good.

Unless you mean claimspace, which is an issue for a different thread.

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Won more often as NK than either ‘evil’ faction

4 Likes

I’ve seen the same happen - the NK is probably better at the moment, and that needs changing.

Reaper might need a slight nerf, and I feel like Knight should kill processor if it guards?

Just having Knight counter Possessor isn’t an ideal solution

It’s still just as good with no Knight

Either way, this is discussion for a different thread

Yes I was thinking if the exact same thing pretty much, swapping the two around

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I genuinely think that the only problem with Reaper is two reapers.

However, I do like the ideas presented here.

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I don’t have access to the game, but I’ve read a whole lot. The Cult looks horribly underwhelming, and their antagonist, The Paladin, is as terrifying as you’ve described. Even the Cult versions of converted roles seem weaker than BR roles.

You could have two Cultists left, choose to sacrifice one to murder a player, and then have the Paladin kill the Cult Leader the same night, giving you a somewhat unexpected loss. That probably feels bad.

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The Cult will probably be buffed in the future, but balance isn’t the highest priority.

And if you think they’re weak now, you should’ve seen them pre-alpha :*)

To be fair they were a multiball faction back then

I’d like a multiball game mode, if the system can handle it one day

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Ew

Like 20 players, cult and unseen, king of a random faction and no neutrals

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That would be better, I guess.

Be interesting from time to time

I think unseen is better