So my other post got eaten, but: gold doesn’t matter. If it was still 0% for leaving nobody would stay. The -60% was a remark aimed at the idea that it provided any incentive to stay (because the real reason to stay is gone)
Also, I just realized that you can have a larger impact by watching a steamer play a game than being dead in a game. Which is weird, since a non-participant affecting the game more than a participant is unexpected.
Wholeheartedly agree with this thread. I loved being a dead player and being able to enact my revenge through Death Knight or Psychic. It’s an absolute travesty that they removed it. I think it is even advertised on the game’s release that, your game is not over upon death. There are so many angles that they could explore with the dead. They should definitely add some scum-sided death interaction too though. An obvious first one is giving call of the dead to Illusionist/Apostle. Throughout all the class/rework suggestions there are many ideas that incorporate the dead that could be used by the developers. I’ll reference my own for shameless promotion: https://forum.imperium42.com/t/class-suggestion-the-necromancer/37500
It’s never fun to lose. But in that case, they were beaten by the combination of the Paladin’s ability and the Psychic’s ability, no different than any other loss. I don’t feel that it is any more unfun than losing in any other particular way; the Psychic has no special defenses and can be killed like anyone else to cut off the channel with the dead.
Whereas the unfun of being dead with no way to interact with the living is grating and absolute. You are taking a shallow BD-vs-Cult viewpoint (as though ‘fun’ is a zero-sum game); but it absolutely is not. There are thousands of ways for the Cult to lose, and the Psychic is no more unfun or unfair than any of the others - its removal will not (will absolutely not, I guarantee, with total certainty) make the overall game for evils even one iota more fun. You are demanding that the psychic get removed so Evils can have it more easy (and, in your interpretation, more “fun”); but the important bits of fun don’t come from winning or losing (which, after all, everyone experiences at various times), but from having interesting mechanics and interesting ways of interacting with the game.
Removing all communication with the dead makes the game unfun (even for dead evils, who don’t benefit from it!) Since most people die at some point in the game, this is vastly more important than “it’s fun to win.”
Basically, trying to improve winrates is a bad way to add fun to the game. And removing an entire aspect of the game, just to improve the scum winrate a little, seems like an extremely bad way to try and make things more fun, even before you get to how completely unfun this is going to make being dead.
The problem here is the psychic’s broadcast, not the ability to speak with the dead. People should have to decide if they believe the Psychic; the ability to speak to the dead shouldn’t be held by someone who can trivially confirm or who can convey information anonymously.
But deaths in the first few nights is mostly random. It is good for the game to ‘smooth out’ that randomness a little by providing a way in which early information (while the psychic is still alive and unconverted) can be passed to the living.
You… you haven’t made any arguments that it is useful for balance. Your only arguments, as I read it, are:
It sometimes causes scum to lose, and losing is unfun, therefore it is bad for them.
The dead shouldn’t be able to speak to the living because you say so. (!?)
Seriously, I’m trying to answer your points here, but about 90% of what you’re saying is the second category (just saying over and over that you don’t think the dead should be able to talk to the living.) And, well… you’re wrong? Dead communication has been a vital cornerstone of the genre for as long as it existed. Always has been, always will be. It serves numerous vital purposes (as I outlined above), both in terms of making the game fun enough to be playable and in terms of enforcing balance.
Looks like a lot of people agree with us based on the likes, I’m a bit surprised that a lot of people agree with us
Oi I am from the beta and I agree with this.
Fun does not equal balance. But I said this before on something different. Without fun it’s a game that no one will play. Without balance only the crazy people would play. With balance AND fun more people will play. Your argument is on balance but this game isn’t just about balance. I didn’t come here for balance I came here for fun. That being said the power is usually ethier totally useless or totally OP.
My argument is on both balance and fun:
Dead interactions serve to smooth out the randomness of early deaths. This is vital from a balance standpoint.
Dead interactions are vital to keep the game fun, because with no hope of interaction, spending large amounts of time dead (as happens if you play many games and wait to see how they end) becomes tedious and boring.
As far as I can tell, nobody has presented any coherent arguments to remove dead interactions based on balance or fun. Their removal damaged the game and accomplished nothing else. There’s no upside; the game is simply lower-quality than it was before the patch. The balance is worse, and gameplay, overall, is more tedious. This is not the direction things should be going in.
An important class being killed (Aka Prince or something) isn’t solved by dead interaction unless you want a full revive. Small deaths (such as CW or Sheriff) don’t require smoothing out to begin with.
The difference between no death and a small death isn’t that big either because of how meny limited use kill boosters that exist and the fact that it is so common for a kill to be stopped (almost 50% that at least one of them will in Unseen) it’s not swingy because it is consistent over the early parts of the game until additional information kicks in.
So no it doesn’t smooth out swing from death because death isn’t inherently swingy and when it is death interaction isn’t helpful in solving it.
Not sure I could like this enough. I was redirected here after making a similar thread not long ago.
One thing I would also like to point out, is we’ve completely lost the dead chat mind game aspect that truly is magical. I had a game yesterday before the patch where a possessor jumped into an assassin, face-lifted as the assassin… and yet dead BD assumed he was BD (because he lied and because the Unseen immediately got another convert off… that promptly died but left waay too many unseen to be reasonable) and then tried to trick the DK (me) into CSing someone that was not the last assassin (which would have won unseen the game). Somehow I happened to notice he was acting sus, and as the DK CS’d the last assassin.
On top of that, the unseen have lost the magic of fearing a random DK guard. Should I attack this guy…did that phys get a rez off? etc.
This update has completely killed that sort of magic, and really dumbed down the game in my opinion.
The Physician and Psychic have been absolutely butchered, and replaced with mediocrity. That’s not good for the longevity of a game that already struggles with player base.
Magic fearing? People shouldn’t fear the dead. They are dead. Dead people should stay dead. It’s not magic to fear dead people. It’s called being scared of a ghost
If you don’t think this has made the end game less interesting… I’m not sure I can explain it to you.
Majority of the games I’ve been in recently, have disliked the changes. I have yet to hear people in game praise…well any of them really.
It was fun I used to love staying around for a dk or psychic, now I just leave, even if it was just something so little I would stay while dead
I only heard possessors like the psychic changes but adding a trapped soul would be better just like NightX said
And that’s fine. But unless you force everyone who dies to stay, any dead interaction is impossible to balance.
Just curious, do people consider Town of Salem balanced?
The way I figure it, is that while games like these are tailored towards logical deductions and whatnot… there has always been RND elements. If a retri is spawned in ToS, is that game-breakingly unbalanced? I personally wouldn’t mind dead interaction being unbalanced (referencing the fun/vs balance debate above) yet in my opinion, the way it was earlier was balanced. Plenty of times people left and a phys couldn’t get a rez before dying to unseen/cult or the rez’d person went AFK for a bit, or perhaps the rez happened too early because the phys got scared he wouldn’t get it off.
I think it was pretty well balanced before the update. But that may just be me.
