Don't remove interactions with the dead. Add more interactions with the dead

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

So. If people haven’t heard yet, the next patch is planned to remove all interactions with the dead (DKs, Psychic / Mystic’s ability to speak with them, Chill’s ability to speak with the dead, all of it.) The stated reason for this is that because people sometimes leave after dying, those abilities are unreliable (and the upcoming patch will give you 40% of your winnings if you leave before the game ends.)

I’m strongly opposed to this change. My reasoning, taken from the patch thread:

  1. No class in ToL was entirely dependent on the dead. Physician and Psychic / Mystic were still obviously very useful even if every dead person left immediately. So it’s not really a problem if people leave while dead.

  2. People often want to stick around after death in order to see the end of the game (and if you’re a member of a faction, you’re still going to lose a lot of GP if you leave early under the new rules.) When people do stick around, it’s more fun for them if they have some way to get messages to the living, even if it’s unreliable.

  3. The ability for the dead to talk to the living smooths out randomness a little bit by ensuring that it’s still possible to get their results on their last day (so, an investigative dying on the same night that they visit someone doesn’t always mean their results are lost forever.)

  4. Communication with the dead leads to more strategically-deep gameplay because it adds more people who can devote their time to analyzing events and generally applying social deduction, then gives them a way to relay that to the living.

  5. Fun is an important part of the game (it is, after all, a game.) Yes, the game needs to be balanced to be fun, but “Call The Dead is fun” and “it’s fun to hang around as a dead and try to give good advice to the mystic” are totally good arguments for keeping the ability.

The only people who it really matters if they stay or not are BD, and BD still lose a lot of their winnings if they leave early. Beyond that, a lot of people like staying around to see how the game ends. To me (someone who almost always sticks around to see the end), this change is going to make me enjoy the game significantly less, to the point where it might even make me stop playing - being dead is going to be utterly boring, so the options will mostly be “never see how a game ends if you die” or “sit around being bored, with most other people leaving because they can’t influence things so you won’t even have anyone to talk to.”

This is just the wrong direction to go. Add more interaction with the dead so people are incentivized to stay, not less. And try to design dead-interaction classes so they’re not 100% dependent on interacting with the dead (ie. they have other stuff to do, too.) This is mostly the case.

Honestly this wasn’t even a problem. The Psychic’s link causes way more problems than their ability to speak with the dead (since it makes it impossible to fakeclaim psychic.)

14 Likes
Dead Interactions
#2

Back to my first post. Sheriff was killed by unseen because he could find them. Now how unfair would it be to the unseen if the sheriff found the MM on night four and gave it to the mystic. Dead should stay dead

1 Like
#3

That requires two BD working together; and killing isn’t the same as roleblocking. I don’t see “Sheriff caught Mastermind and passed that to the Psychic, who then passed it to the court” as a particularly unfair interaction, no more so than the Sheriff catching them on their own.

Beyond that, if the MM wanted to shut down that pipeline, all they’d have to do is find the Psychic as soon as possible. And from a meta perspective, killing the sheriff is still worthwhile (it shuts down all investigations after that night), so it doesn’t cause any problems in gameplay terms.

I don’t see anything unfair about it, but “fair” isn’t the main consideration anyway - it’s “does this lead to interesting play.” The ability to speak to the dead leads to interesting play and interesting interactions, making the Psychic more than just a knock-off Jailor.

(As an example of the problems with “fairness” - if the Sheriff is randomly killed by the Assassin or NK the night he finds someone, is it “fair” for that to be permanently lost? I think that fairness doesn’t really matter, but that the most interesting way for it to work is for there to be a way for this information to reach the living, but to make it a bit roundabout and unreliable - ie. it requires the psychic or someone along those lines.)

Again, keeping the game fun is ultimately essential. This change will make the game extremely unfun to anyone who likes to watch games to the end.

2 Likes
#4

Multiple Psychics is good. So removing Call of the Dead is good.

Nerfing Physician is good. So removing Reanimate is good. Especially since Death Knights were way too powerful for what they were anyways.

Reaper’s Chill losing the “talk to the dead” aspect is the only one I’d be okay with being reverted, but I sure ain’t asking for it either.

There are many other positive changes these (already positive) changes allow, and now that you can leave once dead if you wish I see no issues with these changes.

3 Likes
#5

Why? I think it’s an utterly terrible change that will make the game completely unfun (nearly to the point of unplayability) to people who like to stick around and watch the end of the game.

It’s not a suggestion I’ve even seen anyone ask for (and I would have been aggressively arguing against it, at every turn, if I knew it was even remotely being considered - although my first reaction would have been to see it as an unviable joke suggestion.)

The game has the enjoyable first and foremost. This is, actually, even more important than balance in some situations (at least in the sense that if there’s a balance issue, “find a solution that doesn’t ruin the game’s fun” is a vital consideration.) This suggestion would make the game much, much more boring under many situations, and AFAIK nobody has even presented a worthwhile reason for it beyond “lol it felt unfair to me once” and “sometimes people leave.”

Neither of those are good arguments for removing such a vital part of the game.

3 Likes
#6

I only have a problem with half assed dead interaction.

If there isn’t always dead interaction (like in live) then a lot of the time you will either:

A: End up sitting around while waiting for a chance to interact that will never come.

Or

B: End up leaving when you could have influenced the game meaningfully.

4 Likes
#7

This is why I feel that these changes are going in the wrong direction - we should be adding more interactions with the dead, not taking them out.

I don’t feel that “remove all interactions with the dead” is a viable solution when many people like to see how the game ends and, also, don’t like sitting around being bored.

3 Likes
#8

Do you quit the game if there isn’t a Psychic?

Neither do I.

2 Likes
#9

also if a psychic is the only thing keeping you there you probably will be happier being able to leave now anyways

getting into another game slive is more “fun” than sticking around in one dead

just saying

3 Likes
#10

Considering that guarenteeing a Psy or Phy had its own big problems and that Psy isn’t a good class to put an ability like call the dead on. I’m happy with how they handled it.

You say this is a big problem yet your the only one complaining.

2 Likes
#11

I usually don’t leave (because I like to see how the game ends.) But I do find it extremely boring and unfun. The idea that anyone would even consider making that the way all games end when you die is nauseating to me.

I just don’t think “remove the Psychic’s ability to speak to the dead” should be seen as a viable option. It’s a central pillar of what makes the game enjoyable under certain circumstances. Yes, it can’t always work (there needs to be a way for evils to remove it by killing the psychic), but it’s absolutely an important part of the game.

I absolutely disagree. To me, seeing how games end is vital to my enjoyment. However, I find it eye-gougingly dull when there’s no interactions left, especially if I have to endure multiple nights like that; the idea that anyone would suggest making that the default is incomprehensible to me.

Maybe you don’t like sticking around? That’s the sense I’m getting from your opinion here. But this is basically forcing that on everyone, which I feel is a huge mistake.

1 Like
#12

Me: “I always stick around, regardless of there being a Psychic or not.”

You: “I get the feeling you don’t like sticking around.”

what

1 Like
#13

So put it on another class, if necessary.

My post has a few likes, so obviously I’m not the only one who feels that way. The other people just aren’t speaking up yet.

1 Like
#14

I don’t know how else to read the second part. If you think it’s more fun to get into another game rather than sticking around, that’s your call, but…

#15

It’s more “fun”

The quotes being critical to the meaning

#16

We tried that. The priest ended up becoming such a problem that she was removed from the game entirely.

1 Like
#17

As far as this goes, what would people say to giving it to the Court Wizard? He lacks an easy way to confirm and can’t convey info from the dead anonymously (and I don’t think this would generally give him a way to confirm - it is occasionally possible to do so, but my experience from similar games is that it doesn’t happen often.)

It would fit his themes, and it’s even a Support ability, so it would fit his class type. That way, revealing info from the dead would require that the CW reveal, and he might not even be believed.

#18

Likes do not measure the validity of an argument

Even if they did

image

Twice as many likes on a reply to a post arguing for more dead interaction

Utterly pointless to know, but just don’t argue based on likes lol

#19

Making CW unique is not worth

Not doing that wouldn’t be worth it either

Lose-lose situation

#20

Btw Call the Dead is social.