'Faction neuts' are a problem

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

I am reffering 3 neuts I feel that are really problematic, alch, merc, pretender (knowing that pretender is agreed upon most community as a role that should be deleted, I will not talk about him here).

The alch and the merc have very passive or friendly abilities and objective, which gives them the option to open claim d1 and just ‘do their thing’ until game ends without many problems.

I am sure that everyone on these forums played the game a ton and knows that winning or losing by the decision of a neut not only feels bad, but also fake.

My suggestion, is remake or remove merc and alch to have a more aggressive objective that cannot be ignored like fool/scorned/inq, and once any neuts finishes its objectives, he can no longer vote, and doesn’t count as a living player. (for example, if a winning neut, and 3 other people are alive, only 2 people are needed to up for trial), that way, neuts no longer can dictate the winner of the game based on their agenda, they are just neuts who need to complete their objective silently.

#2

Heya
Joke post incoming, dont be offended :3

If ya wanna make them bad, make sure as Alchemist to shank somebody and do some shenanigans. It’s incredibly easy to make ppl distrust Alchs :slight_smile:

Also lol day 1 claiming these people have no brains

#3

My solution that keeps their true neutral status:

Alch - Bring back JOAT alch minus tar potion. Tweak the specifics a bit but the idea is the same. Truth potion has a cascading effect that ends up making Alchemist valuable enough for scum to kill while suspicious enough for BD to kill but also powerful enough to be fun to play as Alch in the first place.

Merc - Increase brilder’s needed to win. The idea is that if the game will usually end before he wins, then a merc must actively stall the game in order to win. This requires active play.

3 Likes
#4

The more brilders required to win, thr less overall Occ immunes you can have for “Fairer” gameplay. If you need 10 Brilders to win but you have 3 Butlers and 3 Drunks, you basically can’t win. With 6 in this situation you might pull this off, despite it being improbable.

#5

suspicious enough for BD to kill
“This person accused a flipped townie of being scum, Prince exe them”
Truth potion was the worst. It was what made Alch the BD dog much like Pretender being buff princess.

2 Likes
#6

Alch varies on the community meta
It is the same alch from years ago and years ago its winrate was bad because no one trusted alchs as they always sided scum in the end
Imo the death immunity day potion is the problem. It makes it so Alch don’t have to fear the Unseen and side with them.

1 Like
#7

Also I agree 7 brilders was optimal and 6 is too easy
I was from the time they were balancing how many brilders Merc needed to win and 7 used to be consensus

#8

JOAT Alch is sus because once Tar is gone Alch becomes the perfect fake claim for scum in terms of kit. Maid is the next best fake claim.

1 Like
#9

So it’s not “This alch is sus because alchs are sus”

but rather its “This alch is sus because it might not be alch at all”.

1 Like
#10

It solves the question of people ignoring Alch claims
It does not solve the problem of Alch being factionally BD, and they would be even more so by counterclaim power

2 Likes
#11

As a pret I am the devil,
I am actually salty that the situation is as bad as it gets, I usually claim D1 “Pret here siding evils”, nobody cares, kills king n2-n3, “elect me im pret siding evils” (In this stage I only post logs if I found K.O Royal or if I am asked to), always gets elected, usually someone tries to tell BD to kill me at this point, but I simply vote him, make up a reason why he is evil, he gets exed and everyone forgets. --> that happens every game I roll pretender.

1 Like
#12

I think this keeps the Alch’s status as a faction role, what you suggest might be better than what we have now, but it does not fix the problem I am talking about.

#13

When it was like this (because this was a thing at one point), due to neither Cultseen nor BD being a reliable ally, the Alchemists HAD to be hidden at first and actively gain favor with someone (either scum or BD depending on situation and playstyle), rather than just claiming alch and being ignored like now.

Your issue was that they had “the option to open claim d1 and just ‘do their thing’ until game ends without many problems.” due to being passive and friendly.

So if we change their kit’s to force them to be more active then problem solved.

You don’t need to make them anti-BD to solve the problem you mentioned.

#14

Alch is easy to prove lategame, which is where neutclaims matter, as they are usually the last healer left alive.

#15

Just get healed from any attack or bleeding
There is your proven Alchemist.

#16

JOAT alch is harder to prove that way due to limited heals. Not impossible, but significantly less likely.

And the point is that D1 alchs become suspect, not that alch is impossible to prove.

#17

The point is that Alch shouldn’t side BD 90% of the time

#18

If it’s endgame when they are found out then they don’t have to.

Truth pot makes it easier not to side BD since you can know who the evils are in order to help them.

#19

Or in order to bus them to the Prince to become confirmed Alch
Actually that seems a real good MM fakeclaim idea

1 Like
#20

Now you’re getting it.

1 Like