and for me, it’s simply trying to define game-throwing in a fair manner. Saying “I am assassin please execute me”, should be inarguable game-throwing. But, it’s simply slightly poor play if you are a fool, and if it’s not gamethrowing for a fool, than it shouldn’t be gamethrowing for one pretending to be fool. Because it’s a strategy that sometimes works… it’s a bit of a grey area to call it gamethrowing, rather than the black and white it should be.
I admit Fools are a problem but only because Knights and Prince can’t kill until N3. So the problem is actually not Fool but anti-gamethrowing mechanics which only exist as a crutch for bad moderation. insufficient moderation on this very specific aspect, I do acknowledge this game has a top-tier moderation system
@Vandalay gamethrowing is defined as “trying to lose”, it’s just intent and not complicated at all, and determining this intent is a general moderation problem that has literally nothing to do with fool specifically. The definition of gamethrowing is so clear there is no room for a “grey area”, it truly is black and white, either you tried to lose or you didn’t.
You can argue about whether a certain tactic was smart in a certain case but whether it’s gamethrowing can only be known for sure by reading the person’s mind
Right but what I mean is in a world without a fool.
Assasain: “Hey everyone, I’m assasain you should probably execute me”.
Without fool, you can say there’s 0 reason that anyone who even half knows the rules of the game should say that. With fool… it’s a bad plan with a 10% chance of not backfiring, but a 10% chance can’t be ruled out as a bad play rather than attempted suicide.
Since true intent isn’t purely detectable via reading logs… we do know with the exception of a fool, trying to get executed, is gamethrowing… but with fools present “trying to look like you are trying to get executed”, isn’t gamethrowing. Which creates the most ridiculous scenerio to attempt to read intent of.
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Assasain: “Hey everyone, I’m assasain you should probably execute me”.
That can be a legitimate play. I won one of my most memorable games by doing exactly that. Prince was going to jail and execute the Mastermind so I claimed Assassin and got executed instead.
so you see absolutely no problem with winning a game by claiming wolf and then hoping the villagers decide to NOT KILL YOU?
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Removing Fool isn’t going to make the “claim evil as evil” tactic disappear or become useless, it will just make it less common.
It’s not useless
But it is no longer a strategy you can use to save yourself
Sacrificing yourself to save a converter is another story, and is essentially completely different from the case we are talking about.
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As long as BD must prioritize certain evils over others, claiming evil as evil will remain a legitimate tactic. I can admit I’m Scorned so they don’t execute me (yet). Examples are endless.
At least to me, the opportunity cost of lynching someone that could be fool is always worth it in comparison to leaving it to the night.
There are some classes such as Knight, Princess, Sheriff, Merc, etc. that have nothing to lose by executing someone that “could” be fool.
Leaving things to the night is often unreliable. So why not lynch when most often there’s a majority chance it’s not actually fool if you’re already suspecting fool.
It’s not dodging the point. He wants to remove fool so claiming your actual evil class isn’t a defense. But removing fool won’t do that. If you are Reaper getting executed, you can claim Reaper on trial and identity the mastermind to buy yourself time. None of the arguments for removing fool make any sense. Especially ridiculous is the complaint that fool “punishes you for lynching evil”, because that’s a lack of appreciation for the depth of social interaction that his counter-intuitive wincon brings to the game. It’s not a logical argument.
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He wants to remove it so people execute an evil when they claim evil. Sacrificing yourself for the greater good by claiming a evil is a strat he’s not talking about. You are dodging the point
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He wants to remove it so people execute an evil when they claim evil.
People can and do execute fools at night.