FoL Feedback Thread

[anon97870008]

@Arete

literally everyone agrees that if you play incredibly well you should have a >15 percent chance to win

I dont agree.

[anon97870008]

Imagine being a player who knows he’s not the best player of all times.
I never randed NK. Or the neutral Impossible-to-win-Alch. I would probably not replace out because thats throwing, but I would definitely slank, and definitely NOT try to give my very best. Cuz its not worth spending your time on. You will lose anyways.
I have the greatest respects for anyone who gives his best as NK. You WILL be frustrated at the end.
There is no point in trying.

[Wazza]

11/30 - 36.66% winrate with Sorcerer.
9/28 - 32.14% winrate with Reaper.
13/27 - 48.15% winrate with Possessor.

33/85 - 38.8% winrate with NKs.

What they say are facts, but they burnt them for it.

[orangeandblack5]

@NuclearBurrito

To that I say, in Evolve we agreed that the Monster should have the same winrate as the Hunters, even though the Monster isn’t a team either.

It’s not a team

But Evolve isn’t a team-based game

So I really don’t see how that’s at all relevant

[orangeandblack5]

@NuclearBurrito

The claim “a 33/33/33% winrate is bad” is not the same as the claim “The changes required to create a 33/33/33% winrate are bad”.

Specifically the 1st one is saying that the winrates being set to that by itself makes the game worse.

The 2nd one is saying that the changes which cause the winrates to be set to that are causing non-balance problems.

But both claims are true

[orangeandblack5]

@NuclearBurrito

If we could have a 33/33/33% winrate without creating any non-balance issues (like the NK’s aren’t just brute forcing the game and the social deduction aspect is as intact as it is now ect), would the game be worse? If so why?

Yes it would.

The entire point of a social deduction game is to pit an informed minority against a uninformed majority and force people to use their wits and charisma to either discern who is teamed up or stop the others from discovering their team.

Throwing a single player for whom neither of those ideas even apply at all a full third of all games on average completely destroys the notion of being a social deduction game, and would lose a fair amount of what makes them fun in the first place.

[orangeandblack5]

@NuclearBurrito

While yes the game has inherent unfairness, we still want to limit that unfairness whenever possible. Remember that just because we can’t be perfect doesn’t mean we should throw our hands up and give up entirely.

I’m not disagreeing nor was I arguing for this

But 33% to an unaligned player is not fair to literally anyone else

[orangeandblack5]

@NuclearBurrito

that still wouldn’t explain a difference between Cultseen and BD winrate.

There is no gray area there. Cultseen is multiple players, so there is no arguing that they aren’t a faction. And you agreed that you should balance based on teams not the playercount within the teams. So why do you claim that Cultseen should have a lower winrate than BD inspite of this?

Because the NK is a non-uninformed-majority player

Any time it wins the uninformed majority loses

Its winrate should basically be docked from scum as they ideally work together in the early game but are always both against town and so should be balanced accordingly

It’s the exact same reason I was saying that multiball setups should generally tank the winrate of the “first” scum faction and only slightly lower the town’s

[orangeandblack5]

@anon97870008

I never randed NK. Or the neutral Impossible-to-win-Alch. I would probably not replace out because thats throwing, but I would definitely slank, and definitely NOT try to give my very best. Cuz its not worth spending your time on.

Hot take

Old Alch/Fool and Revenant were much more likely to make players apathetic through being easy than the more difficult classes ever were or ever will be

Source: history shows it’s true

[Ami]

imagine stopping voting for 100+ hours.

[Ami]

@anon97870008
how would that make you feel?

[Arete]

@Arete

literally everyone agrees that if you play incredibly well you should have a >15 percent chance to win

I dont agree.

…why not? In particular, given your next post (that average players should have some chance to win), that’s more-or-less not possible without people who played incredibly well having more than a 15 percent chance to win.

[Arete]

@anon97870008

Imagine being a player who knows he’s not the best player of all times.
I never randed NK.

o/

Hi it’s me, I randed NK back when I pretty much completely sucked (rather than now, when I just mostly suck) and even though I lost, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t fun

[anon97870008]

I never was in that situation in the forums. I was in the situation tho in tol (Old Scorned who had to get 4 people executed, which was pretty insane), and I remember that we rather outted ourselves and asked for a pity win as neutral King, than to actually try to win on the normal way. I think I still tried to mark people, but I never put any effort to win on the normal way.

[Emilia]

@Arete

o/

Hi it’s me, I randed NK back when I pretty much completely sucked (rather than now, when I just mostly suck) and even though I lost, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t fun

Balance=bad

I agree with this Good Take

[Emilia]

@Arete

…why not? In particular, given your next post (that average players should have some chance to win), that’s more-or-less not possible without people who played incredibly well having more than a 15 percent chance to win.

NK has Very low winrate We should fix that not say that if We get perfect player into that slot they will get better win chance

[anon97870008]

Fixing it for very good players doesnt help the normal player at all.

[Icibalus]

can i suggest we make NKs an optional cool thing rather than making them the crux of the entire setup?

i haven’t really thought this through but it might be interesting

[Arete]

It’s not like there are really ways to buff NK that help good players and only good players

More-or-less any plausible way of buffing NK will make it easier for everyone

[Emilia]

So We should buff NK?