Let's talk about neutrals!

#1

ok gonna get the easy ones out of the way first .

possessor : kill on sight
reaper : kill on sight

fool : So here is a fool . standard practice is to kill him and lose a turn or twos execution while 1 or 2 players shout about letting the Prince kill him …

For me once you have identified him as no good it is a better play to let a knight(best) or hunter kill him. A Prince can be better getting on with princing. you can’t guarantee their will be a night but give a knight a night to do their job is a good shout here.

Also a living fool is more of an annoyance than an actual threat as long as everyone is aware to double check statements.

Scorned : in similar vein to fool and often cause for foolish accusations . can be executed in lieu of anything better to do .or killed by prince

the big controversy two

mercenary and alchemist

I see often these blanket statements

all neutrals need killing
and
we don’t need a merc/alchemist .

so before I go on here are the benefits of a Mercenary

a mercenary will stop a killer killing somebody
here are the choices
1 . That player is a bd and is being protected from neutral killers or assassins .
2 . that player is a neutral and is being protected from neutral killers or assassins
3 . that player is a unseen and is being protected against neutral killers and knights .

aprox 10 of 13 occasions the merc will start protecting a blue dragon
approx 2 of 13 times he will start protecting an unseen or cult
approx 1 of 13 times it will be an alchemists or neutral killer .

So from this you can see that he no longer is likely to be a threat at the start of the game but is most likely protecting a blue dragon .

the most likely action that a mercenary will carry out at the beginning of a game is to protect a bd from death . he will also very likely vote with his master . Giving blue dragon a bonus vote .

you can confirm a Merc is a Merc by asking who he is mercing and get him to stand guard etc .

A living Merc has a better chance of helping blue dragon than hindering blue dragon .

a tame merc can be the difference of two votes for bd .

Conclusion stop killing Merc claims if they can prove Merc .

Alchemist

The alchemist can heal people . this stops people
dying .

it is in the alchemists interest to be In favour with the majority.
the game starts with the blue dragon in the majority.
An alchemist will likely continue with blue dragon until it is statistically likely that the blue dragon have already lost the game .

If you discover an alchemist set him a task rather kill him outright . Get him to kill fools and scorned and suspected cult and unseen . or ask him to heal a confirmed blue dragon .

make sure he knows to vote with blue dragon or face there wrath .

they just want to stay alive
a dead alchemist is no use to anyone .

I often see people lynching an alchemist without considering what they can do .
I also see this happening in turns where realistically the blue dragon needs desperately to get a cult or unseen executed .
often as a unseen I will actively encourage this sort of behaviour because it nearly always benefits unseen to have a lynch wasted on alchemist.

#2

Scorned is night immune. Knight can’t coldsteel it

#3

Evils can hide behind an alchemist claim so, unless they can prove it fast, get rid of them. Merc is tricky - depends how trustworthy their master is.

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#4

ah yes of cource

on second point evils can hide behind any class … that’s one of those thoughtless baseless issues

#5

The difference is that you stand nothing to lose by killing an Alchemist claim, but everything to gain. Even giving them a night to “prove” themselves is harmful since that means they could kill a BD in the meantime if they were lying. Or, you know, they could kill who you asked them to kill because they’re the NK.

The Alchemist really brings nothing of value to BD. If their vote makes the difference, then they’ll probably side with the evils because that ensures them that the game will finish quickly (which is in their interest). If their vote doesn’t make the difference, then they’ll just raise the threshold to lynch someone, meaning you now need more BD votes to get someone on the stand.

They can kill two people, who have a good chance of being BD. And killing is actually in the Alchemist’s interest, unlike healing which frankly is only there to give them a bargaining chip with the BD, but it hurts their interest since they want people to die fast.

Alchemists should just learn to fake claim in order to survive, like most non-BD classes already do, instead of complaining every time they get killed after admitting to being non BD.
There is no reason to spare an Alchemist claim early in the game, because you probably won’t have any other better leads and no one else to lynch, so you’re literally giving up nothing.

It’s a different matter with Mercenaries because they can actually prove themselves, and if you suspect they are contracted to an evil, you should just get the evil first.

1 Like
#6

Caveat at the start: Pretty much everything in this game is situational, especially with neutral roles, so don’t think anything can be said as gospel or a plan to follow 100% of the time.

The main reason to kill an Alchemist is because it’s a common claim for neutral Killer. The King is the biggest threat to these rolls since all he needs to say in court is that you aren’t an ally and you’re done. So they claim Alchemist to try to survive that eventuality, but of course they never do because BD has no problem killing an alchemist claim, just in case.

I’d let a confirmed Alch live in some circumstances… the problem is Alch is really, really, hard to confirm, and if they aren’t confirmed you don’t lose much letting one die on the hopes they’re really a NK. NKs are as big a threat to cult and unseen as they are to BD, so usually the votes go badly for the Alch as both sides don’t want to risk it.

So usually they can’t be confirmed, which means you kill them. And even if they can be confirmed, a neutral is usually a bad thing to have hanging around for BD, especially a neutral with Kill power and incentive to use that kill power to tip the scales for team evil.

Now there are times I’d let one live, but that’s usually because BD is winning anyway, they are confirmed, and I know I have them by the balls and they’ll behave. But that’s mostly just being courteous to the player, if I was going balls to the wall try-hard ot win, I’d probably Kill an Alchemist 95% of the time.

Which means as Alch I think it’s best to just fake claim and hope you don’t get a King that checks you. Another idea I had is just claim to King you are Alch Day 1 in a whisper and offer to do his bidding in exchange for protection. I’m not sure how well that would work, it probably depends on the King’s alignment. I’d definitely take that deal as a Neutral King, not sure about a good or evil one.

For Merc, they are easy to confirm, but that’s balanced out by them being the only neutral that isn’t convert immune. So sure, they can confirm they started as Merc, but they can’t confirm they are still a Merc now. So unless they’ve guarded in the past couple of nights, they go to the block. Especially late when the chance for conversion is higher and the remaining number of guards is lower. But keep in mind you still Win as merc even if you die, provided you die with a contract and your contract survives.

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#7

No king type sees alchemist as hostile to them.

#8

kings don’t see anyone as hostile to them …

#9

Good Kings see Alchemists as “Not an ally”, so they will accuse them.

Neutral Kings see Alchemists as “Neutral”. They will probably accuse them (either by telling the truth or by pretending to be a Good King), because they might be a NK. NKs are the Neutral King’s worst enemies.

Evil Kings are the only ones who won’t accuse an Alchemist. Because they will see them as “Not an ally” and just assume they found a Blue Dragon.

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#10

Good kings see then as an ally I thought. Neutral king sees things neutral. Not so sure about evil.

#11

Not an ally means they are not the same faction as the King. Alchemists are not Blue Dragon, so a Blue Dragon King will see them as not an ally.

Same for Evil Kings, but again, an Evil King will probably just assume they found a Blue Dragon when they get a “Not an ally” message.

#12

Maybe I’m mistaken in that regard

#13

If the mercs contract is confirmed BD then I’ll obviously let him live. If not, it is super dangerous letting the merc live as a merc on an evil late game is basically impossible to beat.

If you claim alchemist without diffinitive prove imma murder you so hard. If you have proof I’ll still murder you but it will be softer.

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#14

yes, neutrals are seen as “not an ally” to BD and evil king.

In my opinion, merc needs to die if they are not on a prince or sheriff/paladin.

Why? well, if merc is contracted to a BD, the unseen/cult are both enticed and deterred to try and convert merc target, as:

  1. merc target may be guarded, and converter’s night wasted
  2. if they pull the conversion off, evil faction gets another vote (4 for unseen, 5 for cult)

Merc not only protects their target from death, but investigation. If merc is on CW, however, CW can just magical barrier the merc.

#15

Neutrals are by far my favorite class to play as.

That being said, I rarely claim truthfully. MAYBE as a Merc.

Alchemists are KoS. So many times have the Alchemist claims flipped as scum for me…

#16

only time it has ever been worth allowing alch to live is if the BD support are dead and prince needs a healer

#17

Or if the phys is outed and needs a healer.

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#18

If there is a confirmed reaper or posessor in play it’s almost always better to kill ANY claimed neutral. None of the neutral classes are worth risking them stay alive.

They’re also great conversion bait after being pardoned as neutral since most won’t bother protecting them.

Only situation you would let them stay alive is if someone else has a confirmed unseen/cult during day and have to choose between executing one or the other, and even then only if it’s been confirmed they are alch/merc.