Pretender Rework

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#41

On Maid it would be even weirder. Also we could introduce more Royalty checkers later too.

Or you can claim CW, Maid, literally anything if you get unlucky with Blood Tests and use your bonus votes to sneak a King win from the others.

Because the attack is unhealable, if you manage to attack them, they would die. So barring Defile, you would know. Even if they were to be Defiled, you would know thanks to Mimicry, which would basically become the Royals ability. Mimicry is like a placeholder, it becomes whatever the Royal had.

Yeah thatā€™s what I was afraid of, but you canā€™t really limit it. I could do canā€™t target each player once but then you could get screwed over by King guards. If you got some idea for this, hit me up, always happy to improve my designs.

Thatā€™s what Usurper was designed for. Canā€™t get a confirmed deb or gossip? Kill the King for easier elections.

I think I made this back in allies King, you might be right about it piercing guards instead. Weā€™ll see.

Good enough, into the game with it :slight_smile:

#42

The Current pret has investigatives abilities. and very good abilities to offer to the BD. In exchange for their support. And the results of the pretender cannot be fake. ā€¦

This pret has nothing to offer to the BD. so this would kill the pret out Meta. Which is a good point. in fact, the only thing it can offer, is to find mm, when they claim princess. as it more chance to kill prince, and others royals. No one will leave an outed pretender alive.

And a problem, is that it has an unhealable attack, I think this would put too messure on the knight, who cannot be everywhere at the same time.

while its true I dislike the current pretender, and hate bd pretenders as evil. the Pret cannot investigate during all games, he normally has 3 nights, before he has to kill king. and the longer the game goes, with fewer person, the pret might actually side with evil.

I prefer the current pretender to this reworkā€¦ Sorry, but I think this is a mistake.

#43

Pretty sure making Pretenders an auto exe is the entire point

#44

Pretender is a mistake this is still a mistake but a better mistake.

#45

I would not go that way. When you Suggest a neutral class. Normally. we want a class that can side toward any side as they want, as they long as they can accomplish their objective. this current pretender is extremely dangerous to any Royals. and Extremely dangerous to the BD if every they king prince, as they attack the prince the same night as they find him.

Also. sadly. even with Mimicry, the Pret cannot really fake claim Drunk, noble. and will be unable to fake claim princess. So. you want to take the thrones, but are unable to fake any kind of royal class. I mean you must kill a drunk to fake drunkā€¦ so the first nights, youā€™ll have nothing to say, except I debauch the deads

the current pret aint perfect. but he got something to claim. his worst problem actually are not royals. but butlers. who will never hesitate to poison the pret king

#46

Not counting pretender (because thatā€™s the class being changed here) there are only 2 neutral classes that can freely side with BD. Merc and Alchemist to be specific.

Sellsword cannot ever side with BD.

NK is NK

All other neuts can technically win with BD but are inherently harmful to BD when trying to win.

Inquisitor wants 2-3 specific BD players dead. Scorned wants to get players executed regardless of faction, and just by existing makes it harder to trust investigators. And fool prevents 2 to 3 days of executions, including the day you executed the fool.

So Neutrals that are incentivized to side with scum are more common than Neutrals that are not.

#47

Regardless though. In order for Pretenders wincon to be engaging the BD must not want Pretender to be King.

Right now you open claim Pretender, use Ballet Swap to prove yourself, and get Kinged when the King dies.

This isnā€™t interesting or involved and it doesnā€™t improve King election dynamics.

If BD actively wanted to avoid making the Pretender a King then she would have to fake claim and thus inherently puts suspicion on claims that generally get Kinged.

Thatā€™s why my ideal solution would be to make Pretender very good at fake claiming several Classes. But then also make Pretender King have the Sellsword wincon rather than the Alchemist wincon.

That way Pretender is a scum that wants to prioritize looking BD before turning on the BD when elected. And sheā€™s still possible to scumread since she needs to not do so well at being BD that scum will lose after she is elected.

#48

A scorned can make a BD king win, because of the simple that executing the king, is a contraduction to her own goal. as she cannot frame the king, and executing good king will stop trials during the next day, the same way, a Scorned has no reason to execute an evil king

Sellsword can step for king, just saying. as else, an easy way to prove a sellsword. would be to ask everyone to step for king. and who ever does not step is evil.

The only way for an evil pret to exist. Would to give him drunk/noble/princess abilities all at the same time. by Changeing Blood Test into something like (create potion) from old Alchemist who had 4 potions.

but there is a problem with that , what we do with starting evil king. Killing the evil king is detrimental to evil.

#49

None of this is relevant and it also has exceptions. If a Scorned is redirected she can mark a King. The frame wonā€™t matter but she can still win due to executing a King.

Sellsword stepping for King doesnā€™t matter for the purposes of this discussion. The point is that a Sellsword is scum and BD will want to Kill a known Sellsword when given the option.

She doesnā€™t need Princess Abilities.

Mastermind and seeker already are sufficient deterrents to mindlessly kinging Princess claims.

That just leaves Noble and Drunk. And if we remove twin (which has an entire list of reasons to do) then both classes can be faked at once with the 2 night abilities and 2 day abilities.

Hence the difference between scum and a scum sided neutral. This is not a game design problem, but rather something the Pretender will need to consider as a player.

#50

multiple points here

1 Invoker cannot claim Drunk for more then 2 nights. And they cannot happy hour, thanks to a recent fix. Making it. a bit hard to kill Drunk. Also. since Drunk is a powerfull BD class. It is not a good idea to king a drunk claim.

2 Noble is the worst fake-claim ever, is not only easily confirmable. but gossip on random, it can be pretty hard to fake alone, especially. if you claim there was a phys on your target and no one claim to be a phys

2 Scorned can be redirected to the king. but they should only execute a GOOD king when they have 1 mark, since the Good King passive will prevent the court from having a 2nd execution. its the same as Scorned framing a fool night 1. one might think its super for both neutral. but once the fool passive trigger, the Scorned cannot get any mark at all for the next two nights. And During those two days, the court might question them for (leads)ā€¦ but nothing she offer is good for herself. Also, redirectiong scorned to the King require a DRUNK. An outed Scorned is not very dangerous. Beside, very often, you can find original evils, without any investigative worksā€¦
Imagine a bit. scorned framing a princeā€¦ the situation is not dangerous by itself. good king will pardon, while evil king will execute, but they would act the same without a scorned.

Seeker might step for king. but for Mastermind, especially when the original, assassin is deadā€¦ its crazy.

right now. Sellsword is the only scum sided neutral. you say Inq is scum sided. But I find that more often, when I am heretic, no one cares about me. that I must fake claim as BD, since the Knight as more important things to do, then protecting a fellow bd member from a neutral. We even have (BD inqs), who out day 1, and directly give then heathens classes. If there is a neutral I would execute without any though, its the INQ. but people I play with do not share this idea.

Also. the Unhealable part is what I hate the most. its not needed at all.

on that note. I am so lateā€¦

#51

they can actually. Just select the same target twice.

And I said noble is fake claimable with 2 abilities. You need at least 2 abilities designed with fake claiming noble in mind in order to fake claim noble. But with those 2 itā€™s doable.

Specifically you need whisper reading and force vote. Gossip can be faked although not reliably.

Drunk just needs omni-redirect

#52

Well see noble being fake-claimable when they can remove noble Twin. then you have to be lucky and hope no Phys, Chrono, Knight or invest classes just noticed you claimed their logs are not real, to no get executed. like Observerā€¦ (while the class could be easily fake-claimed, you realise like me. it carry Way more risks.

Invoker, cannot hh right nowā€¦ Iā€™ve tried and and the 2nd target become impossible moment I click on the firstā€¦ So noā€¦ invoker cannot Happy hour right now.

#53

I think I got a fix for you people ā€¦

Successor

Blue Dragon Social
** (Passive)** - Crowned. During elections for a new king, votes for you will count for 2, this passive will be considered as royal blood by other pretenders.
** (Night)** - Blood Test. Check if a player has royal blood, if they are, you will learn their classes. (infiinite uses)
** (Night)** - Promotion. Give Royal blood passive to a player, they will appear as a royal to investigators (1 uses)

Defeat the Unseen, the Cult, along with any neutrals who seek to harm you.

Become

Pretender

Unseen Special
** (Passive)** - Usurper Upon election for a new king. you will directly become the Evil King, ignoring all votes.
** (Night)** - Expert Framing (infinite uses), Check and frame a player, you will learn their possible class types, and anyone else who investigate this target shall receive shall received framed results
(Night)** - Disguise (3 uses), disguise a player, if said player dies tonight or tomorrow, they shall appear as the class you have selected. ( can target yourself or other members of the unseen)

Defeat the Blue Dragon along with any neutrals who seek to harm you.

#54

so bascally

a worse princess but slightly better duchess in some way?

eh, could be a bit more original

#55

Already changed.

#56

Why is this not just actually royal blood

#57

These are the best class proposals Iā€™ve ever seen, imagine how dramatic that would be for Usurper to just instantly become king? Nothing would match it except Decide Fate. Terrible early game of course but would win late games.

Successā€™s investigative ability (royal blood check) is fantastic, itā€™s very useful yet easy to fake. Before Maid this sort of things was a problem for MMā€™s fake claim but not anymore.

And being able to give royal blood to someone is very cool too, even though lore wise would make more sense on King.

#58

this was exactly the idea.
Usurper will allow the Unseen to FORCE the election of an evil King. Early game its just terrible since everyone will see it. but late. this could be a decisive factor.

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