Remove Mercenary and Occupation notifications

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Mercenary Notifications: The target should not be informed. This makes it impossible to fake claim Mercenary, and in addition it can be a red flag that the Mercenary was converted for their target.

Occupation and Redirection Notifications: As Butler, Drunk, or any converted form, you should not be notified if your target is immune. Drunk can already can knowledge on who the killers are (Assassin and Reaper), and is not an investigator. Butler also isn’t an investigator. The point of the classes is to stop people from taking action, not to investigate people.

3 Likes
#2

Seems stupid that you wouldn’t know someone was stood outside your room guarding you.

Occupying a player isn’t investigating, it’s occupying them, of course you should know if someone is occupy immune!

#3

The balance is more important than the lore. It’s too make Mercenary not auto confirm able.

Why should you know that? It gives you information on what they could be, and that’s an investigative power, not an offensive one. It should be removed.

1 Like
#4

I agree here for the Merc notifications. While I think it’s a small part in a big thing(https://forum.imperium42.com/t/how-to-fix-the-mercenary-and-sellsword-if-necessary/46105)

It’s the Mercenary’s biggest problem (even if it’s good for the mercenary)

#5

I agree that occupation immune notifications should be removed so Butlers and Drunks aren’t investigative classes anymore.

#6

I find merc balanced enough

#7

This isn’t about balancing the Mercenary. This is about 2 things, both indirectly related:

A: Giving evils some claim space by putting Mercenary on the table.
B: Making it less likely to be outed by your former target as Sellsword, since you can’t guard them anymore if they request it.

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#8

Pay special attention to this. This is one of the biggest things wrong with Mercenary. Easy confirmation.

#9

What’s so wrong with easy confirmation of your merc? Its someone you pay to guard you.You should know who you hired.Now you saying that Mercenary is an easy confirmation is flawed at best.How many complaints are there about Merc? Literally this one.And why? Why is this such a problem? Sure no class can claim merc that isn’t merc but if you are claiming merc in the first place your pretty suspicious. Thus this change might just issue the kill all mercs meta.This would make it so nobody claims merc(not even mercs)thus making your change useless.That’s all it would do. Now the occupy immunity problem is not one I really agree with. Only 2 classes can occupy in the first place. Drunk and Butler. Now them finding out someone is immune or occupied is not the worst problem ever. First of all its a social deduction game.If abilities became useless then Drunk and butler would be some of the worst classes in the game. Butler is already on the bottom rung so you’re proposing to change a weak class. Now Drunk finding out someone attacked isn’t that bad in my opinion. Seriously they find Assassin if they’re lucky,maybe the NK if its reaper,alchemist’s so I just don’t see how this would be a bad thing.BD needs to have a chance.BD loses majority quick so they have to act while they can.These abilities help the BD win games and i dont see why you want to nerf occupation and redirection.

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#10

The lore bit I think doesn’t need to be considered, since balance is more important.

I will say I’m not the only one complaining, Chocalate and Aquillon have also complained about this, among with others.

Mercenary would definitely become more suspect, but as long as you claim protecting BD you basically are BD. One problem with Mercenary now is that if it is converted, its target can usually tell, since they won’t receive the notification, even if they ask for a guard.

Butler is by no means a weak class. Although they can’t find killers like Drunk can, they can off the King if they think they’re evil, and Party protects them from attacks and conversion.

Drunk already has semi investigative powers.

The main party hurt by the notifications is Possessor and Sorcerer, since they can’t claim Drunk/Butler, since they can’t occupy, but if they claim anything else people will spot the contradiction.

It’s not a massive buff or nerf, but it helps NKs, while doing very little harm to Butler or Drunk.

#11

Butler is the weakest class in the game right now. His primary ability only helps when targeting 1 of 1-2 people. Either the Assassin/CL or the Reaper if there is one. In every other situation it either does basically nothing or it hurts BD. The only reason it can accomplish ANYTHING early game is because of the feedback. Drunk is a different story because his ability does not negate the use of the target’s ability and HH is more versatile as well.

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#12

Seems stupid that you wouldn’t know someone was stood outside your room guarding you.

A physician can stand guard without you noticing them - and they can actually heal you without you figuring out who they are. So can the Alchemist, Knight and Paladin. If anything, the Mercenary messages should be removed just because they’re extremely counter-intuitive - no other protective produces messages unless they actually save you.

The Princess can flirt with you, and you not only don’t learn who she is, you don’t even know anyone flirted with you!

The Butler can serve you wine without you figuring out who he is.

#13

Wrong Physician is just a person who walks in and heals you.Why would you know them? Same with Knights,Alchemists,and Paladins. Butler serves you? You’re too drunk to notice.Princess flirts? You see a pretty lady.You might know who they are but why would you maybe she’s one of the hundreds of ladies who flirts with you?
Now mercenary is a person who you talk to,make a contract with,and pay so I feel like you should know if you see them outside your door.
Also there has to be some balance between lore and well balance. If everyone knew who everyone was then it wouldn’t matter what you claimed.Of course for the same reason mercs can’t just bus their original contract they should be recognized by their employer.

#14

OK then what is a weak class? In my mind butler is the among the weakest BD classes.In my mind It goes in power level-Prince,Physician,Knight,Hunter,Sheriff/Paladin,Observer,Psychic,Princess,Drunk,Butler,Noble,CW
Now of course this is my opinion and you might swap a couple but I am pretty sure I hit it spot on in the top and bottom(Princess is one where I didnt know where to put originally but I eventually put her in a spot where I felt like she belonged).I feel like the classes at the top really make a difference and can mean the difference between winning and losing.Prince is the best BD class by far.After that physician’s heal and resurrection can win games.Knight’s CS and Sacrifice have the potential to wipe evils.Hunter’s bears and retribution can snag some kills on evils.Sheriff/Paladin find their targeted faction.Observer can confirm or deny logs.Psychic can float information around though once they are converted they’re fucked.Princess is slightly stronger as on her death she can expose her killer.Now the final 4.Drunk is obviously just a better butler.Noble and CW are just weaker then butler because they don’t do much.In Noble’s case its wait until my vote really makes a difference and in CW’s it’s I barrier this one dude so he cant be converted.Now why is butler so weak? Well take your pick.You stop BD from guarding or investigating.Sure you stop a kill but drunk can also do that.But butler can kill the king.Well no shit he can but given that the king is good 60% of the time this doesn’t come into play often as you will either be dead or king is actually good.And even when king is evil alchemist might just heal them making your ability useless.The other thing is you can stop conversions and kills on yourself.Sure you save yourself but you’re so weak it doesn’t even matter if you survive.I would much rather have a drunk who can HH the possessor lets say instead of a butler who can party.CW and Drunk outclass butler in stopping conversions because they can block other people from being converted not just themselves.Drunk with DB in cult games and HH in unseen.CW with magical barrier.Late game Noble outclasses butler so hard.Granted Noble outclasses everything late game except prince but still the point stands.At no point in the game is butler ever going to be the best.There is no niche for butler therefore making him one of the weakest classes in the game.(Noble doesn’t do enough early to mid game and CW doesn’t protect well enough.)
If you wanted to buff NKs just buff the NKs why are we nerfing butler and drunk to make them better?
And what do you mean very little? This changes the small amount of power that makes butler good.Take that away and butler becomes near worthless.I will admit that you are right that Possessor and Sorcerer suffer the most from this but maybe they just have to live with it.
Maybe instead of asking to change the mechanic you just add more occupy immune classes.Brilliant! Why didn’t we think of this?!

#15

Abilities aside, every BD matters. Even if a class had no abilities whatsoever, they are still a BD vote, helping you keep that much needed BD majority. As long as you save a BD, no matter what the abilities, it is worth it. Of course, I’d rather save a Prince than a Butler, but it’s still extremely helpful.

Also, Butler can only tell you if it’s a Butler, Drunk, Hunter, Prince, NK or a converted form. It arbitrarily limits claim space from a class that isn’t even an investigative.

More occupy immune classes should not be added since they arbitrarily limit Butler, Drunk, and CW power. They only exist to prevent mindscrews (Butlers occupying each other) or balance reasons (Butler stopping Prince execute).

#16

Continuing the discussion from Remove Mercenary and Occupation notifications:

Moving on to merc.I don’t see how the notification is that big of a deal? Why would it be? Why would you try claiming merc in the first place? Sure you might be converted but if unseen convert a mercenary then they are desperate.Like why wouldn’t they just convert the merc’s target?
Sellsword is a strong class but that get overshadowed by the fact that to get one you had to A-Convert a Neutral and B-You might just have a merc as an unseen.Like I stated earlier all the changes would do is push for a #Mercsout meta making the change irrelevant.

#17

Now of course Butler is still a BD vote.Every BD is a vote.Only matters when BD has majority and actually do something with that vote.Like sometimes I wish I could kill some players for not doing anything with their vote.But if you could trade a butler for a drunk I would do it every single time.Now you saying that its extremely helpful saving a BD only matters in some scenarios.A-You were attacked and saved your life.Good Job.You still have zero information about who attacked you.You might not have even been attacked thus wasting a night of your time.And yes I do mean it doesn’t matter if you survive.In what scenario where BD isn’t just winning by a landslide is butler going to be the MVP? I can’t think of one.Ok so butler’s uses finding drunk,the other butler,Prince,Possessor,Sorcerer,Fool,Scorned,and invoker.This is what makes butler useful.
So why are we changing it?

#18

Unseen/Cult won’t target the Mercenary if they can help it. They might not know who the Mercenary is, so might convert them instead of BD.

While it does promote Mercsout it is already a thing, but it really helps the Mercenary if they are converted, while helping evils.

#19

If mercsout is already a thing then this change shouldnt even matter.It shouldnt even be a problem.Mercs should be dead before this ever matters if thats the case.

#20

Because the Butler isn’t an investigative. If you want an investigator that finds those classes specifically, I guess it could be okay. But Butler isn’t for doing that. It is not an investigator. And while it isn’t always going to be the star of the game, it can help, even if it just randomly occupies the Assassin or Cult Leader, even if Drunk is better at that function.

But while the Butler doesn’t know if the person is a killer, it can still defend itself, and it can kill the King, even if that one is often nullified.