Resolved: Fool is competitive #debate

I agree with your major premise here. If Fool could frame as S/I and be redirected, would you then suddenly agree Fool is competitive (meaning, takes skill to win as and skill to identify)?

What
What’s the basis for this claim

Then why is your only argument 5 words long:

It also messes with mechanics

What mechanic does it mess with? How does this mean Fool doesn’t take skill to play or deal with?

Yes

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what

That literally wasn’t even an argument

Well your arguments against Fool are indeed in short supply.

Sorry I don’t feel the need to rehash them all again, though it would behoove you to not ignore the points made thus far to instead come after me in particular :stuck_out_tongue:

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I suspect that arguments on most topics that use 280 characters or fewer are in short supply.

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In a world where the fool doesn’t exist, deliberately appearing sus as scum is only useful if your team is bussing. Although there are other plays such as powerwolfing (which is a term used when talking about ToL btw so it does meet your rules) which make you suspicious as a byproduct, the suspicion isn’t the goal of the strategies.

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Thus, if no bus is occurring, then appearing suspicious socially is exclusively the result of a misplay.

Thus deliberately appearing suspicious is bad play.

anyways, the real issue is from the BD PoV.

While a Scum can never both further their wincon and also appear perfectly BD, a fool is perfectly capable of acting exactly like scum while still playing to win.

This is because in order for a scum player to win they must preform anti-BD actions, and this intention can be spotted. However a fool trying to win does not need to preform anti-scum actions, and a fool preforming pro-scum actions doesn’t have to look different from a scum preforming pro-scum actions. And in fact you would expect them not to, because that is the fools wincon.

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What this means is that scum reading can never with any semblance of reliability tell the difference between a scum and a fool.

This issue is compounded by the fact that scum will sometimes try and act like a fool, and fools will sometimes act like scum pretending to be fools, and so on. At which point telling the difference is even MORE futile.

And you have to go though this for EVERY SINGLE LYNCH regardless of there being an actual fool involved.

This in practice makes any and all scum-reading based lynches far too risky to be worth it even if you are sure you found a real read. The end result being that all BD players in all games must rely on mechanical information, which unlike social deduction requires specific classes in order to counter for the scum.

Powerwolfing is a Mafia term, and being explicitly listed as against my rules cannot be said to meet my rules. But I didn’t expect better reasoning from someone who discriminates against others just because of their social class. The Fool did not choose to roll Fool.

I acknowledge your point about appearing suspicious being the result of a misplay in a world where Fool does not exist. Not sure why you made that point but I am still reading.

This argument is invalid under your rules due to using words such as ‘requires,’ ‘to,’ ‘because,’ ‘you,’ etc., none of which are ToL terms

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It takes skill to appear as a “scum performing pro-scum actions”, instead of a pathetic caricature of a scum. I’ll take some low-hanging fruit as an example – A fool who makes the mistake of acting like the Mastermind when it’s a Cult game will be outed as a fool by paladins.

Haven’t you ever seen a Fool accidentally out himself from “trying too hard” or “going overboard”? Even using trollbox can get yourself outed, the opposite of your intention, because it takes skill to use effectively.

Or you can just not talk