SFoL 67: Clash of Cults 2 -- Balance/Discussion Thread

[Geyde]

are there any instances of things that allow for massive amounts of kp
are there any ridiculous interactions between abilities
are there any extremely confusing interactions
is one side significantly better than the other (do something like analysis on this)
are ratios favorable in a way that every side (bd and each of the cults) have a reasonable chance to win (it’s fine if one is slightly favored)?

these would be questions I would ask looking at this
multiball is a fickle thing that you can’t balance without a ton of information to work with
so you’re mostly trying to hit outliers

[Geyde]

@Geyde

multiball is a fickle thing that you can’t balance without a ton of information to work with
so you’re mostly trying to hit outliers

aka
trying to actually calculate things is a fucking joke beyond napkin math

[katze]

@Geyde

are there any instances of things that allow for massive amounts of kp

given there’s 16 random BD slots (Archer vig, Knight vig, Alch desperado, Butler poison, Hunter), Prince, and two Cult Leaders who have a decent chance to both kill on the same night, 2 Cults who can bleed (and Hunter can bleed too I guess) and a few other cultists who can add a bit of KP (Cabalist adding an extra kill to erad/BoM, Acolyte speeding up bleeds or Lone Cultist™️ing)

there is potential for quite a few kills in one night

assuming both cults attack N2, that’s 3 kills at the very least; excluding any town kill power

@Geyde

are there any ridiculous interactions between abilities

i don’t think so? there might be a few wonky M.Cult/C.Cult interactions i should probably double check for though

@Geyde

are there any extremely confusing interactions

i think the most confusing part in this setup is cult points given a lot of people have never played a setup with them

the rest is mostly normal FoL stuff so i don’t think anything should be too confusing

@Geyde

is one side significantly better than the other (do something like analysis on this)

will do some more analysis on this later

@Geyde

are ratios favorable in a way that every side (bd and each of the cults) have a reasonable chance to win (it’s fine if one is slightly favored)?

at a glance i feel like all 3 factions have a reasonable chance of winning even disregarding the whole “cult never win” thing

before i put this on the queue i think im going to do a pre-rand or two and try to see how the power levels feel

obviously i can’t account for the actual players here

but it might give me some more insight here

[katze]

i’d be lying if i said i’ve looked over every interaction though, since i’m reviving a past setup i didn’t initially feel the need to

but just because it ran once doesn’t mean it was flawless

but iirc that game wasn’t a complete blowout even when one of the cults kinda just died early

[Geyde]

@katze

Cult points: 2 - Each ability costs: 1
Cult Alts:
(Multi-shot Alt) Flesh to Flesh (Day) - Choose 2 players. If one of them is attacked tonight by a non-Mithras Cult member then you will attack the other. - 2 uses
(Eagle Shot Alt) Sacrilege (Night) - If the Cult Leader’s conversion fails or they use Blood of Mithras, you will shoot their target for them instead. Does not count as a visit. - 2 uses
(Bulls-eye Alt) Ancient Curse (Night) - Mark a player for death. If a player has two marks, you will learn their exact class. If a player has three marks, you will kill them bypassing everything. - Infinite uses

this isn’t ridiculous
very self contained in terms of abilities
how the fuck does flesh to flesh work with visit detecting abilities / knights

@katze

(Happy Hour): Wine of Mithras (Night) - Give someone cursed wine. They will not be able to receive any kind of protection tonight. - 1 use

what’s a protection

@katze

(Cold Steel): Lone Cultist (Night) - Kill a player. - 1 Use

this is fine

@katze

Cult points: 2 - Each ability costs: 1
Cult Alts:
(Change Sheets): Mithras’ Wisdom (Day) - At the end of the night, learn if a flip has been tampered with and by which class. - 2 uses
(Rumor): Warp Flesh (Day) - Frame target player this night. - 2 Uses.
(Matchmake): Cult Compatibility (Night) - Test if target has the same faction as the player you last checked. If not, learn their exact classes.

doesn’t this suck

@katze

(Link Minds): Mindbend (Day) - The Cult Leader can use Brainwash tonight, despite that it is on cooldown. - 1 use, only usable when Brainwash is on cooldown

this sounds actually broken as shit
but it also seems like it’s necessary in order to this cult to stand a chance

@katze

(Cleanse Cult Alt) Blood’s Purity (Day) - Tonight, the Cult Leader’s action will succeed. Bypasses visit prevention, occupation and the Court Wizard’s Magical Barrier. - 1 use
(Test of Faith Alt) All-Seeing Eye (Night) - Learn a player’s class. - 2 uses

does this apply to sacrilege or other people performing the action
does it impact protection at all

@katze

(Dose) Blood Daze (Day) - If target player attempts to use a day ability today, they will be forced to target themself with it. - 1 use
(Mix Rooms) Blood Portal (Night) - Target 2 players. Redirect all players targeting either of your targets to the other. You will be seen visiting your first target only. Can target self. - 2 uses
2 Point Alt:
(Serve Ale) Mithras’ Reflection (Night) - Target a player. Redirect all players targeting them back to themselves, bypassing redirection immunity. - 1 use

these seem especially weak

[Geyde]

2 point alt just to redirect people
blood portal can target that redirection at a specific player

[Arete]

@katze

(Serve Ale) Mithras’ Reflection (Night) - Target a player. Redirect all players targeting them back to themselves, bypassing redirection immunity. - 1 use

suggestion

all non-Mithras Cult players

[katze]

@Geyde

how the fuck does flesh to flesh work with visit detecting abilities / knights

do you mean like

i use flesh to flesh on Arete and Anstreim
Arete is killed by a bearing Hunter

what happens next?

cause in this case, Arete was attacked by a non-Mithras Cult member and as such Anstreim gets yeeted

@Geyde

what’s a protection

hm

the wording implies any healing/defends/granted death immunity

given no classes are really naturally DI in this setup that should be fine

@Geyde

doesn’t this suck

the change sheets alt is kinda useless in this setup

the rumor alt is fine

the matchmake alt is okay? its a scum cop with extra steps which seems okay in multiball

@Geyde

does this apply to sacrilege or other people performing the action
does it impact protection at all

i imagine the cleanse alt to act in the same way as Arcane Empower

Arcane Empower (Day) - The player that you target with your ability tonight will bypass immunities (discounting conversion immunity) and be guaranteed to succeed with their actions. Their investigative abilities will always receive correct results. - 2 uses.

which iirc bypasses protections

@Geyde

these seem especially weak

shrug

my initial idea was for the serve ale alt to not bypass redirection immunity but instead cost 1 point

i feel like it’s situationally very strong but i think the scum bus driver is better a lot of the time

but i also think 2 use scum bus driver is still kinda strong

@katze

The Mithras Invoker

Cult Offensive
Fanatic (Passive) - Immune to occupation and target changing.
Bewilder (Day) - Target player is occupied for this day. - 1 Use
Strings of Mithras (Night) - Control a player into targeting another. You will only be seen visiting the controlled player. - 1 use
Your objective is to defeat the Blue Dragon and the Corax Cult.

i think when you consider that mithras invoker has a 1 time dayocc/night redirect, a 2 shot bus driver+1 time day-self-redirect is a decent addition

@Arete

suggestion

all non-Mithras Cult players

actually

i like this

[katze]

The Mithras Invoker

Cult Offensive
Fanatic (Passive) - Immune to occupation and target changing.
Bewilder (Day) - Target player is occupied for this day. - 1 Use
Strings of Mithras (Night) - Control a player into targeting another. You will only be seen visiting the controlled player. - 1 use
Mithras’ Reflection (Night) - Target a player. Redirect all non-Mithras Cult players targeting them back to themselves, bypassing redirection immunity. - 1 use
Your objective is to defeat the Blue Dragon and the Corax Cult.

The Mithras Invoker

Cult Offensive
Fanatic (Passive) - Immune to occupation and target changing.
Bewilder (Day) - Target player is occupied for this day. - 1 Use
Blood Daze (Day) - If target player attempts to use a day ability today, they will be forced to target themself with it. - 1 use
Blood Portal (Night) - Target 2 players. Redirect all players targeting either of your targets to the other. You will be seen visiting your first target only. Can target self. - 2 uses
Strings of Mithras (Night) - Control a player into targeting another. You will only be seen visiting the controlled player. - 1 use
Your objective is to defeat the Blue Dragon and the Corax Cult.

i feel like the second one is still stronger than the first but the first one pretty much has a strongman whereas a bus driver isn’t quite that strong

maybe the reflection can still be a 1 pointer?

[Geyde]

self nightshade

[katze]

how would that be ruled in regular FoL

Nightshade Wine (Day) - Poison The King, causing him to die tonight if not healed. The king will not be informed if he is poisoned. If The King is Good, you will commit suicide. - 1 use, available starting Day 2

i’d imagine the butler just yeets themself honestly

[Geyde]

yes

[katze]

day redirects/occs are dumb

[Geyde]

no

[Geyde]

what is dumb:

Summary

you for reading this lol

[katze]

Summary

take it back geyde >:(

dumb question

noble court spies

if i use it on memsky on D2 that means theyre out of wolfchat on N2 and D3 right

@katze

Those targeted members will be removed from their respective Cult chat for the coming night and day.

that seems right

@katze

(Court Spies): Cult Connections (Day) - At the end of the day, you will learn who voted for whom during today’s king election. - 2 uses

i think in the right scenario this can be really good at finding corax cultists

@katze

(Heal): Mithras’ Mercy (Night) - Heal the Cult Leader and the Cult player they may target with Blood of Mithras this night, preventing them from dying tonight, and curing any bleeding they were suffering from. - 2 uses

this is actually super good

[Geyde]

@katze

if i use it on memsky on D2 that means theyre out of wolfchat on N2 and D3 right

no

[katze]

it takes them out immediately and for the following night?

[Geyde]

wait
it would work like you mentioned earlier considering it targeted memsky

[katze]

i cant tell if im being memed or if you were confused given i chose memesky and spelled his name wrong which was two seperate mistakes

but im pretty sure i was right initially

doing my test roll of the game now

lets see how the power levels feel