Sheriff Rework v2

[RHCube]

Why sheriff needs a rework

• Being unique and guaranteed makes it very hard to fakeclaim. And sheriff is a class that should never not be fakeclaimable, as it becomes overpowered if it’s confirmable

• Scout only affects the MM. Abilities shouldn’t only affect one class(Yes, I know that MM is guaranteed. However, it still becomes useless when the MM is dead.)

• Being unconvertable is bad. The only BD classes that should be unconvertable are prince and the king. There are too many unconvertable classes as is.

• Surveillance makes the sheriff confirmable, and sheriff becomes overpowered if it is confirmable.

• Surveillance is overpowered. It’s not uncommon for only 1 or 2 players to visit a player. And this doesn’t fit sheriff’s theme. Sheriff is not a tank

Name:
Sheriff

Type:
Sheriff

convertible, can appear in both unseen and cult games, is not guaranteed.

Night ability 1: Expert Investigation(unlimited uses)
Determine if your target is evil or not.

**Night ability 2: Targeted Search **
Choose a non-BD class. You will know if that is your targets class. (4 uses)

Day ability 1:Scout(unlimited uses)
You can have a scout watch a player, letting you know if their class changes. The scout will stay on the player until you command them to watch someone else.

Name:
Marshal

Type:
Investigative

Night ability 1: Skilled Investigation(unlimited uses)
Determine your target’s faction

**Night ability 2: Targeted Search(unlimited) **
Choose a class. You will know if that is your targets class

[Aquillion]

I’m opposed to anything that outs neutrals. NKs have it hard enough as it is just by being on their own.

[RHCube]

Buff the NKs then. And this is easy to fakeclaim so people won’t usually believe a sheriff claim.

[Ami]

@RHCube

Night ability 1: Expert Investigation(unlimited uses)

Learn your target’s faction.

GOD NO. WE GOT RID OF ALLIES FOR A REASON… just please no faction checks…

[Ashe]

If the point of expert investigation being a faction checker is because it can show up in both unseen and cult games, I would personally just make it show up Unseen/Cult or not suspicious, rather than having an unlimited uses version of an ability the observer only gets two uses of.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

Day ability 1:Scout(unlimited uses)

You can have a scout watch a player, letting you know if their class changes. The scout will stay on the player until you command them to watch someone else.

Just curious. Besides conversions what does this Ability return results for?

[Aquillion]

Buff the NKs then. And this is easy to fakeclaim so people won’t usually believe a sheriff claim.

I’m not talking about balance. I don’t like what neutral detectors do to the game and I don’t think they should exist. If you want to buff Sheriffs, do it in another way, but “NEUTS OUT” is absolutely terrible for gameplay and I never want to see it return.

Hard no on that part. Detecting neutrals is awful, unfun, leads to boring gameplay and you haven’t even given the slightest indication of why you think it would be a good thing. I don’t care at all how powerful or weak individual roles are - I don’t even care that much about win rates. But detecting neutrals is horribly unfun and defeats the entire purpose of having neutral roles in the first place by encouraging mindless, stupid “NEUTS OUT” gameplay on the part of the court.

Remember, Unseen / Cult are part of a faction. If you get randomly found by the Sheriff / Pally, well, your faction can still win, especially if you gave them good groundwork before getting caught. If you’re a neutral? You’re screwed, totally at random, and there’s nothing you can do. That’s not interesting or fun. No BD role should ever detect neutrals, fullstop.

(Obviously, though, I think Sheriff should be convertible and non-unique so they serve as claimspace for evils. I just don’t see any advantage at all to allowing Sheriffs to detect neutrals, and I have no understanding of why you would even remotely consider adding such a terrible idea to an otherwise-workable suggestion. We finally managed to get rid of Allies, and now you want to give it to someone else? No.)

[NuclearBurrito]

What about observer?

[Livicus]

I propose this Sheriff Rework:

(Evil includes Unseen and Cult, but does not specify)

The Sheriff

Blue Dragon Investigative

(Can be found in Unseen and Cult games, Converts to Marshal)

Passives

Constable: Is immune to conversion by the Mastermind until Day 3. (Can still be seen as becoming Investigative by Foresight)

(Slightly buffs the Cult against the Unseen in converting the Sheriff)

Abilities

Scout: (Day) (oo)
Choose a player. You will be notified at the end of the night if they were converted.

Case Trial: (Day) (1)
During a trial, determine if the accused player is Evil or not. Will still be affected by Frames or Mind Warps from last night.

Expert Investigation: (Night) (oo)
Choose a player. You will see if they are Evil or not.

The Marshal will be the most recent one, with Probe and Expose.

Having a Sheriff being convertible, not unique, but also with Case Trial, means that he can be fake claimed once again by Unseen and Scorned, as well as possibly Cult.

[RHCube]

@Ami

GOD NO. WE GOT RID OF ALLIES FOR A REASON… just please no faction checks…

Allies was removed because it was on a confirmed, unique, and guaranteed class, and resulted in a “Leads or get exed D4” meta, which forced evil kings to buff their own members. The ability itself is fine.

@Ashe

I would personally just make it show up Unseen/Cult or not suspicious, rather than having an unlimited uses version

I didn’t make it like that because that would become useless one the unseen/cult are dead. Though I did change it to a unique class to make it easier for neutrals.

@Ashe

rather than having an unlimited uses version of an ability the observer only gets two uses of.

Observer only has 2 uses because it’s on a confirmable class.

@NuclearBurrito

Just curious. Besides conversions what does this Ability return results for?

Assassin to MM, unseen to assassin, and cult to CL.

@Aquillion

We finally managed to get rid of Allies, and now you want to give it to someone else? No.)

The issue with allies was that it was on a confirmed, unique, and guaranteed class.

@Livicus

Constable: Is immune to conversion by the Mastermind until Day 3. (Can still be seen as becoming Investigative by Foresight)

No. Unconvertable BD classes aren’t good. And that’s too specific.

@Livicus

Scout: (Day) (oo)

Choose a player. You will be notified at the end of the night if they were converted.

That’s too specific.

@Livicus

The Marshal will be the most recent one, with Probe and Expose.

Yes to probe, no to expose. Expose is useless.

[NuclearBurrito]

Seriously. Finding Neuts should be difficult. Personally I’d make EI be an evil or not evil check like it is now and then have a 4 use secondary Ability then checks if someone is a specific non-BD class from a list of all of them.

[NuclearBurrito]

Basically this:

Nighr Ability 2: Targeted Search - Choose a non-BD class. You will know if that is your targets class. (4 uses)

MM returns false on MM N1-3. Same for a cultist effected by brotherhood.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube @Livicus

How does this idea sound?

[NuclearBurrito]

Someone framed returns possitave on any Cult or Unseen depending on the faction in play.

@RHCube what happens to the paladin btw?

[Livicus]

the Paladin should become BD Support, or BD Killer like FoL maybe

[Livicus]

And I would like to say that the Sheriff is immune to conversion by MM for only the first two nights. And Cult can convert him anytime. This is just for that slight “nerf” the Devs are hoping to give Unseen to even out with the Cult.

[RHCube]

@NuclearBurrito

Seriously. Finding Neuts should be difficult. Personally I’d make EI be an evil or not evil check like it is now and then have a 4 use secondary Ability then checks if someone is a specific non-BD class from a list of all of them.

@NuclearBurrito

Basically this:

Nighr Ability 2: Targeted Search - Choose a non-BD class. You will know if that is your targets class. (4 uses)

MM returns false on MM N1-3. Same for a cultist effected by brotherhood.

Alright, changed it.

@NuclearBurrito

@RHCube what happens to the paladin btw?

The paladin would become a BD support class. I’ll make a separate thread on that soon.

@Livicus

And I would like to say that the Sheriff is immune to conversion by MM for only the first two nights. And Cult can convert him anytime. This is just for that slight “nerf” the Devs are hoping to give Unseen to even out with the Cult.

No, specific abilities like that aren’t good.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

Night ability 1: Skilled Investigation(unlimited uses)

Determine your target’s faction

Is there something wrong with probe? The consig has been shown to not be that bad and probe was still not as bad.

@RHCube

Choose a class. You will know if that is your targets class. (4 uses)

you mean “Choose a non-BD class” Right? Otherwise you could disprove any claim anyone makes.

[RHCube]

@NuclearBurrito

Is there something wrong with probe? The consig has been shown to not be that bad and probe was still not as bad.

It’s a better version of duchess. And it’s also specific.

@NuclearBurrito

you mean “Choose a non-BD class” Right? Otherwise you could disprove any claim anyone makes.

But it wouldn’t be that useful if it was only non-BD

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

But it wouldn’t be that useful if it was only non-BD

Trust me it would. If you make it work on BD then its OP.

Hear me out:

At the start of the game starting N4 finding some random Unseen and killing them doesn’t help too much. You are either trying to A: Find and lock down (not kill) the assassin. B: Trying to find and kill the MM or C: Trying to find and kill the NK/other neuts.

With this ability you could determine which unseen class someone is rather than just that they are one. It also can find NK and verify neut claims late game.

The idea is not to use this as your primary means of information gathering (your main ability does that job just fine) but rather to get detailed information on a possible scum. AKA this is for knowing what to do with someone who you already think is scum. The only reason why this doesn’t have unlimited uses is because then it would just be a better EI for early or late game. If 4 uses makes it too weak maybe it could be unlimited with a 1 day cooldown?