Shortnight 2: Return of the POGGERS - Day 5 [6/15] - Mafoa win, Everybody (including chloe) loses

[Centuries]

If you’re V you’re legit pushing the wolf agenda for them btw, so when/if I flip it will go agaisnt you, I hope you’re aware of that in the off chance you’re not W

[Centuries]

The more i think about it the less I understand your pov

[WindwardAway]

@Centuries

Wolves can fake stuff, they can fake emotions, they can fake reads, none of what they feel, as long as the game goes their way, is unfakeable.

This point is dumb since FK faking actual emotions is beneficial to him in this gamestate, if he’s a wolf and is already this deep, he can just keep on being outside POE and endgame because he’s not the most obvious kill. He loses nothing from faking low wim, moreover he doesn’t actually have low wim does he?

I don’t remember him claiming to have low WiM? but I have low WiM yet I’m a compulsive poster because I like solving games
even if I think I’m totally solving them wrong, but that just results in conflicting feelings so weh.
If everything is fakeable from the perspective of a wolf, how do we go about clearing people? What is it that’s supposed to tell us whether their words are genuine or not?

@Centuries

FK was veryyy content with the thread and how it was heading, I was fighting that, I don’t understand how you don’t see that? Moreover, you should be the one who understands my position and takes the most since people were calling us W/W at some points and if you’re actually V that means town is pushing another villager and thus the towncore isn’t clear yet you’re fine with the status quo?

Nah no way you’re fine with the gamestate

I mostly just remember FK calling for a Chloe yeet every single day tbh
I don’t know if that means he is or isn’t fine with the game state but maybe I really should read everything from SoD4 since I skipped pretty much all of it. I might just be missing information but i was trying to work with what I currently see instead of what people posted however many hours ago.

I’m trying to assess which of Marl’s, Arete’s, Osie’s and Sulit’s reads are worth taking into account. A good number of their reads point to you being scum??? and some of them point to FK being scum as well. Some of them also point to me being scum. But I’m trying to find the greatest common denominator between them and I feel like your slot fits that criterion.

@Centuries

Looking at one’s ISO and thinking that they have nothing that looks townie in over 1500 posts is just bs, Townies will look bad over some posts, Wolves will look good over some. You have no reason to have this position in thread and then call me out as having 0 townie posts if you’re in this position as V, it legit isn’t possible for you to think that this gamestate is correct and wolves are in the poe, meanwhile you’re in the poe and the only person fighting the status quo, which if you’re V is wrong, is me. No one else is fighting it. Chloe changed reads, that’s it. Your reads do not make sense, they don’t have actual reasoning that I can see as being truthful behind it. You start with a conclusion, as Arete said. And then make up stuff.

I never said you had 0 townie posts. I just said you didn’t have any posts that I 100% related to where I was absolutely certain your thought process was genuine, in comparison to how I feel about FK’s and Chloe’s slots.

I read games differently from everyone else. I don’t just slap a townread on a wallposter or slap a scumread on someone voting totally wrong. I know it looks like I find trivial things to clear people off but I do think they matter more than people generally attribute to them. I’m an aggressive FM player and I have a “prove me wrong” method. Usually I would come up with a mech-based night strategy that has a decent chance of bringing down a wolf, but this is mountainous and I can’t use that method to prove people’s alignments here. So I’m resorting to any other methods I can think at this point of that aren’t just consensus reading methods, because so far the consensus is wrong.

@Centuries

Look at my ISO again, there’s townie posts, there’s wolfy posts, that’s normal, I have over 1500 posts in a 15er mountainous game. You can push whatever agenda you want with my posts, but one thing is for sure, your outcome, is either completely wrong, or you’re a wolf.

You could be saying this as either alignment, so this doesn’t really say anything at all to me tbh. You keep accusing me of reading all your posts as scumtells when that’s not at all what I’ve done, and here we go down the misunderstanding trail again. All I said is that you’ve posted a lot, you’ve given your thoughts, but I don’t know what’s real or not. That doesn’t mean I am 100% certain you will flip wolf. I literally said it’s likely whoever I vote anyway will not be a wolf. But I have to vote someone, and if I’m not supposed to vote myself, I’m going to vote someone I think has a chance of flipping wolf.

@Centuries

@WindwardAway

jumped to telling me that my reads are dumb and that I’m tunnelling like Leafia as soon as I SR’d him,

This is misrepresenting my points, I can say for sure that at some points during D3, your posts were 100% trying to paint a conclusion on me, rather than actually thinking through my posts, I had a string of 15 posts and you called them all as me being 100% wolfy, without actual looking at it’s content.

I legitimately thought your reactions to me were weird. Maybe I just don’t know how to reaction read but I stand by that claim.

@Centuries

@WindwardAway

I did not SR him for the first half or so of the game.

You did not read me. You’re painting this as if you thought I was townie when all you did was slap a lazy TR on me by doing SBPC in a gamestate where wolves want to post.

Honestly, I thought at least some of your takes were good. But even wolves can have good takes, so yes, I was being lazy by going “this looks decent, probably town”.

@Centuries

NKA is BS, don’t use NKA, you don’t know how to do it.

this is what I said earlier on in the game but people keep doing it and then asking other people to do it so shrug

@Centuries

No kills that can reliably be made by scum on D3 make me look any better.

Blizer kill, I look worse, I’m in his PoE (maybe not anymore)
Chloe kill, I look worse, I’m in her PoE
FK kill (as if that’d ever happen), I look worse, I’m in his PoE
Osie kill, I look worse, I’m in Osie’s PoE

See where I’m getting at? All the possible worlds make me look worse.

actually this is a valid point
and you’re right in that case because a consensus SR is extremely suspicious
but again, if you’re pretty much consensus SR, why has nobody voted you out yet? same with me, if I’m consensus SR why has nobody voted me out yet?
and what about Chloe? she had a shit ton of SRs on her earlier in the game but they all just sort of poofed after Arete was killed.

I just think we need to kill a slot that’s being highly SR’d to use it as a clear for some people, honestly. You’re in that position and I’m in that position. I don’t think Chloe is anymore so lol.
The thing is that I am willing to just volunteer myself to get yeeted here so you guys have another day to revise your reads and you don’t have to deal with me in LyLo. I don’t even think yeeting you, whatever you flip, is going to clear anyone. But I’m voting for the sake of voting, because someone told me to vote someone, and not because I really think my vote is going to matter here. I haven’t tipped any wagons but I’ve conveniently been on all the town consensus wagons that have yeeted town so far, and honestly if EVO were still in the game I probably would’ve tried to yeet him too. I don’t remember whether I thought anything at all about Chloe’s accusation of EVO doing a TMI, but I just thought he looked sort of scummy at first glance and that’s as far as I got with my read on him before he got modkilled.
I hate yeeting for info but if we’re doing such a terrible job at hitting scum with our votes, I’m willing to at least yeet for info if I think it will help us to solve the game, and that’s why I wanted to vote myself this time. I already explained that I thought it might clear FK, although maybe my reasoning is wrong and it doesn’t really clear him.

@Centuries

Me/Leafia is a dumb team. I don’t even need to explain.

Literally any team with Leafia is a dumb team because literally no one besides Osie bothered to reevaluate her slot at all up until now. I voted her and then she got weirded out by my vote and my reasoning and voted me back. But now she’s on Light so I have no clue what’s going on with her slot.

@Centuries

@WindwardAway

What does that indicate to the rest of you?

That you’re a wolf because there’s resistance? If you’re in everyone’s PoE before LYLO, there is an issue, but if you’re in everyone’s PoE and you’re not getting voted, it’s even worse, if you were a Villager and Wolves had anything to gain by pushing you because of the gamestate (thus indicating me wolf) you’d be getting pushed.

Why would wolves push me here when there are plenty of other targets to push? You do realize that the people still alive, with the exception of Grace, are all slots that can be misread and ML’d in LyLo?? Chloe, FK, you and I all fit that description extremely well. And unless three of us are wolves and one is town, it’s a very good position for the wolves to be in because it sets them up for LyLo in the event they lose a wolf to execution before that.
In fact, it’s even better if all three of you are wolves and you just push me until LyLo and then everyone else yeets me, but if that world exists then there’s no way at all town is winning this game.

@Centuries

@WindwardAway

the longer you leave my slot alone the more likely I’ll be ML’d late-game.

This is late-game. It’s LYLO-1, if wolves are in a good position, they gain everything from ML’ing you, but you’re not town I bet. Since they aren’t doing that. you know.

Let’s be honest with ourselves, what was the towncore coming into the day, or the TRs whatever, it’s bad, it’s not correct, the team isn’t Me+Leafia+Gorta, that’s just not the thing, it’s really not. And I don’t even understand how you think that.

You’re fine with the status quo. Which indicates scummates that are fine in thread.

I actually didn’t say it’s you/Leafia/Gorta right now. I’m not pushing Gorta today; I changed my mind because I need time to reassess him fairly. I did say you/Leafia but why is that dumb? I know all of my scumteams have been dumb, but so what? You could compare it to the likelihood chart you made earlier in the game where you rated all the possible scumteams on how likely they would be to exist, but you never put yourself in any of them (obviously from your pov) so there’s really no explanation I can see for why exactly a you/Leafia team would be dumb. What do you want me to do, look at the number of times you’ve interacted and what you’ve interacted on to prove whether or not you’ve been distancing?

@Centuries

@WindwardAway

Look at how D3 went.Sulit and Centuries were counterwagons, but the day ended in a hammer on Sulit while the centuries wagon just… disappeared in favor of hammering Sulit.

Hm let me think, may it be because Sulit dipped? Meanwhile I stayed in thread? Or because Wolves ACTUALLY LOSE FROM ME DYING.? Perhaps because FK gets scumread and my legacy is

= KILL FK

not anything else

wolves lose from you dying? what does that mean, if you die as town isn’t that a point in the wolves’ favor? the only one I can imagine being heavily implicated in your death is actually Blizer.

@Centuries

do you ever think of that or are you so focused on “oh he’s alive means he’s a wolf”

but you’ve been wagoned, unlike me. Nobody has wagoned me, and I’m still alive, and I’m also not a wolf. you were wagoned and then people hopped off (including me) in favor of voting out Sulit. I’ve just never been wagoned at all in this game and I find that even weirder.
wouldn’t it make sense for wolves to kind of hop on their partner for towncred and then jump off again, as opposed to just completely avoiding the slot by going “yeah this is wolfy” and not doing anything at all with it?

@Centuries

Scum gain from me being alive. Scum kill sulit, easy as that. If I was a slot they didn’t care about then that means I’d be dead already, like Sulit for example.

I thought scum liked killing slots they did care about.
and also, I’m pretty sure there was resistance to your wagon so I don’t think you’re entirely correct in saying it means you’re town because the wolves didn’t want you dead.
you could literally apply the same reasoning to me because you said there’s resistance to my wagon when literally nobody is wagoning me, and say the wolves don’t want me dead.

[WindwardAway]

@Centuries

If you’re V you’re legit pushing the wolf agenda for them btw, so when/if I flip it will go agaisnt you, I hope you’re aware of that in the off chance you’re not W

this is honestly why I think you guys should vote me out
get rid of wolfy players, what the fuck are you guys doing dancing around my slot? I’ve been objectively wolfy the entire game and you just let me live for unclear reasons.
you’ll get some clears if you vote me out so I think it’s actually in your best interest.

[WindwardAway]

like what is the resistance to putting me in the PoE? I see I’m in everyone’s scumread PoEs but not in their wagon PoEs.
I thought I’d make it easier for you by voting myself but it’s not working because I tried to vote myself at a time when most of the players weren’t awake.
when the rest of you get back on, vote me if you think I’m a wolf.

[WindwardAway]

like who is stopping you guys from voting me? I’m not stopping you, I’ve been encouraging you to vote me out for a couple days now.
if you want the game state to be healthier then I should be voted out instead of allowing me to spew nonsense for 4 days.

I see Chloe kind of stopping me from getting wagoned every time, so maybe she’s actually a wolf defending my slot. This is a dumb take, but it does exist.

[WindwardAway]

actually yeah this is a better idea.

no explanation to go with it

/vote Chloe @katze

[katze]

Ban Count

Getting Banned	Banners	Votes to be Banned
Chloe	Light, WindwardAway	2/5
WindwardAway	Centuries	1/5
Leafia	Firekitten	1/5
Light	Leafia	1/5
Firekitten	Chloe	1/5
Not Voting	an_gorta_pratai, Grace, Blizer	3

[Centuries]

@WindwardAway

I don’t remember him claiming to have low WiM? but I have low WiM yet I’m a compulsive poster because I like solving games

Stress and anxiety related to posting means lower wim. You don’t have low wim

@WindwardAway

how do we go about clearing people? What is it that’s supposed to tell us whether their words are genuine or not?

What they are pushing, how they are doing it, how correct they are, how they use their vote

Stuff like that, you can fake being sad angry or even hyped it’s not hard I know I can do it and so can FK

@WindwardAway

which of Marl’s, Arete’s, Osie’s and Sulit’s reads are worth taking into account.

I’m not saying to ignore them but the room for wifom is so huge here that we shouldn’t be basing it entirely of off theirs

I think my read on you/fk is like, half arete, half me, it’s something I’ve noticed that has stood the test of the grand 2 days that serarate D2 and D4, there’s a weird like pattern where you’re doing the same thing as before and it’s the thing you got called out for, and I feel the same way Arete did

@WindwardAway

and some of them point to FK being scum as well.

You are really not playing as if you’re considering FK’s alignment in the grand scheme of things

Just saying

@WindwardAway

But I’m trying to find the greatest common denominator between them and I feel like your slot fits that criterion.

But the common denominator is such a dumb way to do that read, Marl didn’t SR me, Arete did and Osie did, that’s 2/3, I think NKA on Osie is worthless and then you’re left with Arete who just doesn’t SR me as much as they do you or FK, so what now? You’re just ignoring his slot.

I genuinely believe I’m barely in the poe of Osie/Arete/Sulit, genuinely am the least scum out of their poe minus Osie, but that’s 2 players who don’t actually SR me that hard

I think Arete’s read on you and FK is way more damning than Arete’s read on me, Arete actually said you were both very obviously pushing agenda and misrepping, meanwhile their read on me is way weaker.

@WindwardAway

in comparison to how I feel about FK’s and Chloe’s slots.

I don’t care about how you feel about Chloe’s post Chloe has been I think threadspewed town by stuff like how Gorta and FK handle the slot.

I think FK is wolf, you’re misclearing him for nooo reason whatsoever and I really don’t see how FK wouldn’t be able to fake something such as the derpslip if you’re town

@WindwardAway

I read games differently from everyone else. I don’t just slap a townread on a wallposter or slap a scumread on someone voting totally wrong.

That’s not my issue, My issue is that you severely misrep your read on me and have been all around pretty lazy about my slot until now, the fact that this status quo that you’re pushing for still stands is veryyyy worrying.

@WindwardAway

have a “prove me wrong” method

What you have is either a pretty good wolf game or a very very confbiased towngame where you’re 100% on the wrong side of every thing that has happened so far

I think one of them is likelier, especially given the threadstate

@WindwardAway

keep accusing me of reading all your posts as scumtells when that’s not at all what I’ve done, and here we go down the misunderstanding trail again. All I said is that you’ve posted a lot, you’ve given your thoughts, but I don’t know what’s real or not .

it’s your job to figure that, not mine, if youre town and genuinely cannot find a single post I’ve made that is somehow not fakeable thne you’re just plain wrong. In a 1600 post ISO there is bound to be a post that is genuinely real and not fakeable, a post being fakeable or not isn’t even what you should base your read on that’s just wrong

@WindwardAway

I’m going to vote someone I think has a chance of flipping wolf.

Which is why you’ve been ignoring FK the entire game? You refuse to see my pov or arguments and then you ust go “oh well I think you can flip wolf”

sure

@WindwardAway

but again, if you’re pretty much consensus SR, why has nobody voted you out yet? same with me, if I’m consensus SR why has nobody voted me out yet?

I talk about this later on

@WindwardAway

because someone told me to vote someone

You’ve been hyperfocused on my slot this entire past 2 days I don’t think you’re actually even caring about others

@WindwardAway

I already explained that I thought it might clear FK

yet again I really don’t see your pov

@WindwardAway

Literally any team with Leafia is a dumb team because literally no one besides Osie bothered to reevaluate her slot at all up until now

Threadspew from D1 to D2 means nothing?? I mean??

@WindwardAway

wolves lose from you dying? what does that mean

FK = spewed wolf if I die
FK = doesn’t want to be spewed wolf

why he has been townreading me for no reason

@WindwardAway

wouldn’t it make sense for wolves to kind of hop on their partner for towncred and then jump off again, as opposed to just completely avoiding the slot by going “yeah this is wolfy” and not doing anything at all with it?

Who are my partners here??

I’m pretty fucking alone in thread

There’s so much to answer to and half of it isn’t even AI so I’m not going to drown thread with a wallpost that huge

@WindwardAway

like what is the resistance to putting me in the PoE? I see I’m in everyone’s scumread PoEs but not in their wagon PoEs.

the fact it’s not happening

---

However your vote is like pretty bad because it’s not sticking I feel?? Like I don’t follow you here

[Centuries]

man my post is huge despite the fact i skipped hafl the points because it’s just not useful at all

[Centuries]

this is too much work

nobody is reading that

people who are reading that wont evaluate it

[WindwardAway]

well I read it but I don’t know if I care at this point

[WindwardAway]

all I’m doing is shifting around my vote and probably driving katze crazy with pings so I guess I’ll stop for now until EoD

i have a meeting in 3 minutes anyway

[WindwardAway]

I think at this point I’d have better luck picking a scumteam if I just dartboard it

[WindwardAway]

idk, if you aren’t a wolf then I guess Chloe/FK would be a pretty effective scumteam

how’s that for a dartboard

except that I actually said it much earlier and then dismissed it

[Centuries]

I’m not sure I’m fine with Chloe/Wind wagon (like THAT pairing not the players inside it, I mean I’d rather not do Chloe tbh)

/unvote

Waiting for people to get on to talk and stuff

[WindwardAway]

idk I just want to turn my reads around and fix them so they’re correct in this game, but if all my previous reads are wrong and all my current reads are just being told they’re wrong, then I don’t have much left to revise because they’ll be considered wrong no matter what I say
I think the people who died so far have it easier because they’re not sitting around thinking about how to solve the damn game
I was never able to fully scrap my earlier reads because I can’t just force myself to forget that I made them, even if I wanted to, and there are way too many posts to bother ISOing for everyone to rebuild my reads from scratch.
I guess I can just keep flipping my reads back and forth until I die?

[Jane]

Ban Count

Getting Banned	Banners	Votes to be Banned
Chloe	Light, WindwardAway	2/5
Leafia	Firekitten	1/5
Light	Leafia	1/5
Firekitten	Chloe	1/5
Not Voting	an_gorta_pratai, Grace, Centuries, Blizer	4

[Centuries]

I mean honestly if you were a lone case I wouldn’t want to take you into LYLO

now we have 3+ of you

[Centuries]

There’s probably scum among you guys hiding

mhh