Sorc/Inq rework

Honestly they’ve taken a few steps in the right direction, and a few in the wrong directions with these classes. Currently as it is, I’d say there’s a huge glaring problem within the classes. The biggest is inquisitioner. It is totally useless while the sorcerer is alive, and waay too strong in cult games, AFTER he’s already won.

First off pointing out the old problem, and where I think the direction of the fix went totally wrong.

In the past, when sorc was first added, he was on his own the least capable NK… then had the added challange of being both weak to anything that could harm either existing NK, plus his own added challange of the neutral that was after him.

The attempted “fix” for this, was to massively buff his skill to fool the neutral that was after him. Magic dust went from framing 1 target, to framing the whole court.

– why this sucked

In short. it makes inquisitor 100% useless for trying to find the sorcerer. I mean assuming an average lifespan of 9 nights for these classes, 3 total court frames, means a 33.33_% chance of false positives, and that’s before adding in things like psychics, CW’s pali’s etc… You’d be an idiot to do anything based on a positive magic user check. Fortunately the BD is more than capable of taking out the sorcerer, so in regards to BD vs sorc it’s a positive change, in terms of justifying the existance of the inqusitioner, it’s awful. The inquisitor as he is now… is waay too good after he has no motivation to be good (especially in cult games), and flat out useless, when he actually has a goal to do… which is pretty much backwards. He’s only useful when he has no incentive to be useful.

If you ask me some modifications.

  1. revert magic frame back to 1 target. or remove it. The inquisitors ONLY true purpose is to hunt the sorcerer. Making him the worse choice to use to try to hunt the sorcerer, is just backwards.

  2. Give sorcerer better cover from BD investigatives. Probably make him show as BD to king (assuming you can’t take that ability away from king to begin with, or make the “allies” ability more like a sheriff/pali check, IE it finds unseen/cult but does not reveal neutrals, which I still am strongly in favor of).

I do strongly approve of the “sorc avoids knights” recent change, as well as the not killing unseen/cult. But I would say on the whole, sorc is too easy to find for BD to justify a whole class to hunt it, and I’d say completely making the class that hunts it incapable of hunting it, as a pretty unwise decision.

and lastly, I would say inquisitor seriously needs to not have such a strong impact on the game AFTER the sorcerer dies. He either becomes a cult hunting mega BD ally, sits on his butt and does nothing, or becomes a pain in the butt BD sabatoger killing all psychic/cw claims, as he no longer has anything to worry about no matter what the outcome. Normally finding out someone’s class is supposed to at least give you some input of a motivation they work towards. IE an alch, cares about staying alive. Won but still hanging around classes though, aren’t really fun for anyone in the game other than that person. They are wildcards that really only can be predicted with out of game information (IE the personality of the player), as they no longer have an in game goal to guide their actions. I really don’t think he should still have abilities after he doesn’t have a win condition anymore.

Just my opinion here, but I must say I like the sorc/inq concept in theory, but in practice right now, I fricking hate every game with them in it. Sorc is still the least capable NK IMO, and the inquisitioner is just a royal pain in the butt after the BD wins the game for him.

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I tend to agree.

Sorc is almost never caught by the Inq, she’s always caught by BDs for being a Neut that’s occupy immune.

Once she dies then the Inq seems to always side with the BD and if it’s a cult game, well BD just wins unless the Cult wastes its few killing abilities on a Neutral, which they HAVE to do or they’ll lose because he’s a Paladin that can also kill them if he feels like it and probably has a night immunity to boot.

I like the idea of Sorc showing as BD and having less dust. It makes the Inq important to find said Sorc. As it is most people just kill the Inq because… he’s probably just gonna kill our Psychics anyway or he’s a NK pretending to be Inq. So we’ll kill him now, if we’re wrong… well the Sorc is easy to find anyway.

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I disagree with a couple of your points.I do agree that Sorcerer shouldn’t attack unseen/cult but I do believe that they should die to knights.Why?Well to give knight something to do frankly.I have stated before that if people complain about dying to knight all the time then maybe you can do a couple of things to help.Make an ability that will prevent you from dying that night and that night only(Kind of like reaper’s souls).This would allow knight to get some form of use as if the sorcerer doesn’t have the immunity that night they die.Also I think they should remove night immunity from the sorcerer and just make evils not able to visit him if they try to attack him.
I do agree that the frame ability is sooo bad for the inquisitor as he is literally just trash with it making the whole court magic.I do agree with the point that Inquisitor should lose his abilities afterwards just because it gives no purpose for him to be able to use them.Another thing they should do is make the inquisitor kill himself or leave the court(Same thing hes gone) once the sorcerer is dead to not give those moments when you have to rely on the inquisitor’s vote to win.Sorcerer should also have better coverage from BD I agree as he has a class hunting him who should have to work for his win not get it handed to him.I think frame should be reworked to not make other sus as to make you not sus.This is just my opinion of course.

not a bad general concept, though further perhaps that can be tweaked a bit, Perhaps a 3 or 4 time use, appear as the class of your choice (still shows as magic user to inquisitor). The bigger thing to me is, it makes sense for the guy who’s specialized in hunting the sorcerer, to be the only one NOT fooled by the sorcerers trickery… rather than the only one fooled by it that he currently is.

one thought that currently comes to mind

day 1: Mirror image - To all investigative’s except for inquisitor, you will appear as this target.

Meaning say if the sorcerer picks a sheriff he would appear as
spec/inv to princess
BD to king/peaking obs etc…

Fair enough this would give him the coverage he needs instead of inquisitor just lying on his ass waiting for BD to do his job for him and would make inquisitor work for victory.

How about this:

Day Ability: Glamour - Apear as the target to Investigative Ability’s. You will learn the targets faction. Does not fool the Inquisitor. (4 uses)

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Maybe also make it so it looks like the Sorc is successfully RBed when you block them.

Inquisitor leaving when the Sorcerer is dead seems like a reasonable idea, too.

(Or Inquisitor could just be removed, or replaced with a totally different role that has nothing to do with the Sorcerer if they don’t want to waste the assets. Are they really needed? To a certain extent this feels like a solution in search of a problem - Sorcerers are fine, it’s the Inquisitors that feel pointless.)

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Inquisitor just needs a complete rework. No class deserves a hardcounter, and sorcerer’s win condition isn’t as easy as it seems.

Only if it’s made unlimited. It was useless before.

It should affect all faction checks, not just the king. Abilities shouldn’t only affect one class. I agree that allies needs a change though.

It’s fine if an ability only effects a class if it’s a guarenteed class like king or prince.

But it’s still better if it doesn’t. What if the king or prince dies and you still have uses left? It becomes useless.

Marchal Invoker and seeker all have Ability’s that only effect one class. It’s not a problem most of the time.

Just because it already exists doesn’t mean that it’s fine.

It works for them. I’m not saying that the classes don’t need a rework but having a class that’s effect only matters for 1 class is no big deal as long as the class is always there. Do you think that Scout and Smile are bad ideas for Ability’s?

The main thing is, king is the one investigative that is guaranteed to be in every game, and more or less one of the only detect neutrals ability. As we’ve mentioned though, the glammer “learn the faction of the target, and appear as that persons class to all BD investigatives, works for me as well”.

Observer’s follow I’m not really sure of a way to make something hide from that, shy of moving the inquisitioners visits aren’t shown passive. Peak itself is pretty uncommon, as observer isn’t guaranteed, is convertable, and only has 2 uses of that ability.

king itself is what I’ve always defined as the neutrals bane…from what I’ve seen almost half of games I’ve played, the king is the one to catch the NK. Hence why NKs that know what they are doing take whatever risk necessary to kill the king first.

The king should probably not be able to distinguish between BDs and Neutrals.

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One of my problems with Inquisitor is that while Find Magic is almost useless because of the Sorcerer’s day ability, Ruthless Efficiency is way too powerful.
You can win the game by simply clicking the right person at night (as well as ruin that person’s game), with no possible countermeasures. Usually Investigative classes need to convince the rest of the court to trust them and vote with them. The Inquisitor doesn’t even need to do that, once he finds the Sorcerer it’s an automatic win for him.
(Also Ruthless Efficiency isn’t deceived by the Sorcerer’s Magic Dust, so it gives you three checks you can trust. Between its results and the people who are already dead, you can find the Sorcerer 100% of the time. Pretty much the only way you can lose as Inquisitor is if you die early.)

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RE is deceived by magic dust.

No it isn’t. You can’t attack a player who isn’t a real magic user.

You can. It happeneds

Im pretty sure you cant.