That makes it too easy to confirm I think, unless the target was jailed.
Then what feedback should crashed CW, Drunks, and Stewards get? And maybe we just do all the talking on one thread instead of two
No feedback at all.
Also, yeah, probably would be better to discuss it on the megathread.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. The CW has a purpose and he does it well imo
Not such a fan of this one… it makes CW testable so long as there’s a noble (or if kings finger counts). I wouldn’t be opposed if it was modified to say “target also cannot be poisoned, bled or chilled the next day”. With of course no public announcements of any kind for such. Prefferably even no announcements to the person warded if the abilities are tried. (again to me the important thing about CW, is that he isn’t removed from the already way too small list of fake claimable classes).
I think I mistypes it, it’s meant to work on trollbox or distract. I probably should remove it though.
CW is the weakest class in the game, and you don’t see it carrying the BD often do you?
I still don’t like these suggestions. Too potentially complicated, too much risk of making the CW more confirmable. I don’t think anything special has to be done when there are overlapping transportations - the end result is obvious to anyone who gets redirected (since it says who you end up targeting), and that’s all that really matters.
Instead, I suggest the following fairly dramatic changes:
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Your barriers last until “used up” by successfully blocking something (they can block any number of non-killing bad things in one night, but will be expended at the end of that night.) If a barrier isn’t used up, it persists until something hits it.
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You cannot place a barrier if you placed one last night. Increase tornado charges by 1 or 2 to ensure that CWs still have something to do on off nights.
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Possibly, BD receive no message when their actions are prevent by your barriers (otherwise CW would become more confirmable, since people could deliberately hit barriers they say they’ve placed. Probably this is unnecessary - people don’t tend to use this to confirm CWs currently, and it can be done by telling them to barrier someone and having a servant test it. It just requires too much coordination and time.)
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You receive a message whenever one of your barriers is expended (“Your barrier on [4] expended itself protecting them from something!”), so you know you need to renew it. You can also use this for some light deduction, but not so extreme that they’d be an investigative.
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If you die or are converted, all your barriers disappear at the end of that night.
This makes CW potentially very powerful in the late game if they’ve managed to keep barriers up on all BDs, and ensures that your barriers will always feel like they accomplish something. However, they can still be wasted to stray occupies and the like, and you can be killed or turned to disable them all. Additionally, placing lasting enchantments rather than everyone else’s one-night actions makes CW feel more “wizardy”, so to speak.
If this is not enough, I would add one final “super” - a one-shot day ability that, when activated, causes all your barriers to protect from death as well as other effects that night. At the end of that night, all barriers are expended.
I feel the persisting Barriers makes it conversions too hard, especially with multiple Court Wizards. It just leaves a mine field of traps for the MM/CL, and makes Butler and Drunk a negative utility by removing them.
Also, it’s already the case Barriers stopping something notifies the CW but not the target.
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I feel the persisting Barriers makes it conversions too hard, especially with multiple Court Wizards. It just leaves a mine field of traps for the MM/CL, and makes Butler and Drunk a negative utility by removing them.
Well, it’s on the MM / CL to avoid picking “obvious” targets. And it will take a CW a while to set lots of barriers up, especially since some of the people they barrier will probably die (or lose their barriers to something else.)
and makes Butler and Drunk a negative utility by removing them.
Occupying BD is already a risk for those roles. Generally-speaking, I don’t feel it’s a problem to have their visits wreck your barriers (and it’s an essential balancing factor) - you’d just have to either live with it or try to coordinate with them. And having BD coordination yield rewards is good.
Also, it’s already the case Barriers stopping something notifies the CW but not the target.
Your target gets told they were immune; I’m suggesting removing that. And I specified alerting the CW because the message would need to be changed (and tell you which barrier was lost) on account of them being persistent.
I do agree, but people will think they drew the short straw when they get the weak class. Balance isn’t the only thing to consider.
CW can help, but almost any class helps more. Good King and Prince already carry BD, even if they shouldn’t.
You can’t justify some utility for leaving it unchanged, especially when it is the weakest in the game.
To be clear, a CW barrier would still always work the night it’s placed; it blocks everything bad that happens that night, so even if another BD triggers it, it will also protect against any conversions that happen that night. It’s not like constant screwups in this regard could make the CW completely useless, only weaker than it would be if BD played perfectly.
Beyond that, there is a reason to add more risk. It rewards higher-level play by BD. The CW should be targeting people who are likely to be BD, while the Butler / Drunk should be targeting people who are likely not BD. If they are targeting the same people, someone’s making a mistake, and it makes sense for BD to do worse when its members make mistakes. The risk here is also necessary to balance out the potential power of persistent barriers; it’s balanced around the idea that, yes, BD will sometimes screw up.
(So “perfect” play where BD makes it to the endgame with all their barriers intact would be a reward for doing things much better than expected; having most barriers only last a little while before someone trips them would be normal.)
Keep in mind that since they place a barrier every other turn, the CW only needs its barriers to last one night (that is, to avoid having them triggered by another BD the very night they’re placed) to come out even. That shouldn’t be hard.
And beyond all that… the overall effect here is to make the CW more powerful and more fun by ensuring that, when you place a barrier, there is a very high chance that it will do something eventually. If you, as CW, are confident that the person you’re placing it on is also BD, then protecting them from a future occupy or deb is worthwhile, even if it’s not quite as amazing as it could be. If you’re placing your barriers on evils, yes, this will backfire, but I feel that that’s a good thing because it rewards skilled / informed play. I think that players generally like classes that are powerful when played well, but dangerous when played poorly - they enjoy having an impact; and I don’t think that the danger here is high enough to ruin the game for everyone else or anything like that.
If we do this persistent barrier thing (which does have potential) we should limit it to having only 2 our at once. No changes need to be made to the feedback involved as the barriered player is already told nothing if protected.
The reason why I think that persistent barriers are a good idea is because it allows the CW to make more interesting decisions. Right now the way to play CW effectively is to sit on a confirmed BD the whole game. If the barrier persists then you can place the barrier on confirmed BD one night and then spend the rest of the game doing other things with tornado much like with sheriff scout.
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You should know what will happen as a result of any combination of actions.
For example: 1 is Knight, 2 is MM, 3 is Assassin and 4 is Prince
1 target’s 3. 3 targets 4
CW A swaps 2 and 3. CW B Swaps 3 and 4
What happens?
You should always be able to predict the outcome of these. That means that both CW’s tornadoes need to resolve at the same time. They either both work at once or neither of them work at all. I’m not sure how to make them both work so neither it is.
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Those situations are always going to be tricky (multiple Knights guarding the same person can also lead to confusion, as can multiple Drunks debbing the same person, etc.)
My feeling is that actions should be resolved in the order they were input the night before. This might seem random to players, but it isn’t, and it would allow for at least some manipulation of the results when you know there’s a risk of a conflict (eg. enter your action at the very start of the night if you want to go first, or wait until a few seconds before the night ends if you want to go last.)
I might have not been here for as long as some f the others, but sometimes I still claimed CW(when he was unique) if it seemed like there wasn’t one already in game cause if you’re the only CW claim, you’re pretty much set for half of the game(depending on how good the BD is)