Ya. Keep the possable but maybe not 2nd one and keep him convertable. The sheriff itself is good he just needs to always be there.
If this change went through I’d definitely hang king asap. He has only 33% of being good and can’t find any confirmed evil so theres no reason not to get rid of him.
We want allies replaced with another powerful ability which can still aid BD, not just removed.
4 Likes
The whole point of starting King is a powerful King who can guide you, it isn’t to get rid of him if he can’t find evils. He’s supposed to use leads to guide people.
We want allies replaced with another powerful ability which can still aid BD, not just removed.
When you put it like that, I’m not so sure.
Part of the problem with allies is that it makes the difference between a Good King and an Evil King extremely swingy - an evil king can do literally nothing, never say a thing, never take a single action, and they’re still significantly weakening the BD just by costing them access to Allies. Is that really a good thing? The Good King / Evil King thing is central to the game and I’m not suggesting that aspect should be tweaked, but it’s already slightly swing as-is - does the starting king really need a powerful ability on top of that?
If the problem is that people will lynch kings too freely without it, why not give them a passive that penalizes mislynches against kings? Make something horrible happen if a starting Good King is executed - eg. every BD gets occupied for the next night or two due to mourning, ignoring occupy immunity. That would discourage people from executing the king solely to replace him with someone confirmed.
Making the reason BDs want to avoid executing a Good King into a stick instead of a carrot has the added advantage of decreasing the swinginess of the starting king’s random side, since a Good King would represent a vulnerability in that they would suffer punishments if they ended up executing him. This balances out the inherent advantage of having a BD with an extra vote, Decide Fate, and some guards.
Whereas if you try to make the Good King awesome so they don’t want to give him up, you’re making the coinflip of which side the king is on incredibly important.
I’d just give the starting king a small buff but then increase the odds of him being good by replacing the starting Neutral king with good king
Allies is already insanely powerful. I like the idea of starting BDs kids guards also preventing conversion. Definately strong enough to stop an instant king lynch but not utterly broken like allies.
1 Like
The “make the king more likely to be good” suggestion is pretty common, but it doesn’t address the core issue that a powerful starting king will always make the game very swingy based on what side he’s on.
I think it would be better to make the king weak (comparatively; they’re still a strong role due to the extra vote, decide fate, and guards) and to keep the current numbers, but to discourage people from blindly lynching kings by adding a severe punishment for BDs if a BD king is lynched. This would balance out the impact of the initial king’s random assignment somewhat, since getting a BD king would pose a risk to BD if they make the mistake of lynching him. (And, conversely, a BD starting king wouldn’t provide a massive benefit like they do now.)
Well my point is that the king being more likely to be good means that he doesn’t need to be as good compared to a regular king. That reduces swing but still makes the starting king particularly valuable. Remember that by day 4 there is a better chance of a royal being converted than the starting king being evil. Right now that doesn’t matter because you would want to kill a neutral king too. If it’s a 66% chance of good king however then it’s a different story.
I don’t like the idea of playing with the ratio. The risk of the starting king being evil should be a serious issue; if it only happened occasionally then players would mostly ignore it unless the king was blatantly, unquestionably evil (or the game just didn’t end when it should, making it obvious.) I don’t think we want that.
What we want is for people to frequently suspect the king is evil, but to be more reluctant to just throw him up on the stand for not accomplishing enough (and so he doesn’t need a powerful ability like Allies to convince them not to lynch him.) IMHO this is best-accomplished by adding some catastrophic punishment for BD if they lynch a Good King.
2 Likes
What I was suggesting was this:
Good King: 66%
Neutral King: 0%
Evil King: 33%
Which btw has no impact on the Evil king chance but makes Good king likely enough to risk it.
What happens to the Neut Kings then, although I will say that when they’re King, they’re either too passive, causing Evil wins, or too passionate about BD
Fuck em. Neutral kings are borring messes compared to other kings and even other neutrals. If one steps up that’s one thing but you should never start with one.
Ok I was trying to defend Neut Kings for Neuts In but you got a really good point, play for a faction
2 Likes
Frankly, I think they just need to change allies to seeing only people from the opposite faction (Neut king can only find neuts or other, Unseen can only see Unseen or other, BD can only see BD or other). That lack of specificity (thats a word right?) would still allow king his usefulness while dropping the insta d2 votes. AND it might drop some of the Neuts out crap that is still going on.
However, I WOULD like having Private Matter or Royal Decree on the king.
The King
Passives
Tenacity
Immune to Occupy and Target Change
Loyalty
Can’t be voted up for Treason in first 3 Days and all accuses for Treason count as 2
Abilities
Allies* (4) (N)
Discover if a player is a member of your faction or not. (Will see “Ally/Not an ally”)
Private Matter* (4) (D)
Make all whispers to and from you invisible today.
Decide Fate (1) (D)
Choose to execute or pardon the accused player.
Royal Decree* (3) (N)
Prevent a player from being accused of treason tomorrow.
Guards (4) (N)
Make a player immune to attack that night.
Original Good and Neut* - Prevent all visits to that player that night.
Original Evil* - Prevent all visits to that player except for Unseen/Cult.
HippolytusForum Veteran
Allies is already insanely powerful. I like the idea of starting BDs kids guards also preventing conversion. Definately strong enough to stop an instant king lynch but not utterly broken like allies.
If you do this, you need to balance it out by having Evil Kings allies convert bd.
You can’t have more than 2 night Ability’s. Also that version of Ally’s just had MORE Neuts out because they were need alongside Unseen and Cult.
[quote=“orangeandblack5, post:20, topic:34445”]Allies Replacement: All whispers to and from the starting King are silent.
BD Boon: Starting Good King’s guards protect against conversion as well as kills.
BD Punishment: If a Good King dies to public execution or Butler, the royal bloodline is useless and royals may not step up early.[/quote]
So kinda like this?
Edit: Quote not working at all? That is correct BBCode, so I have no clue why that is.