The new patch is really bad [The "Kings Out" Patch] (Thread closed by author)

[Cuatrolan]

THREAD CLOSED: Devs changed the Patch notes and now a lot of bad changes were reverted. Thank you <3 Much love!
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Let me explain myself.

There is a lot of good stuff on the Patch (Like the Psycho King buff). But a lot of things are just… Not correct.

First of all i want to say: I love the game, and i really liked the patches, like the Psycho King patch. But this one is, in my opinion, a “no fun allowed” patch.

King:
Removed Allies from starting King.
Added Night Ability Order to starting King - Prevent a player from voting tomorrow. 4 uses.
Abilities no longer count as visiting.

As long as I really liked Allies, I can understand a nerf or the remove of the ability. But “Order” is a joke.
Now neutral kings will always lose, Starting kings will start to get executed Day 4, and there is Nights when the kings has literally nothing to do but Guard Himself. What a shame.

Herbalist:
Replaced Defile with Abscission - Make an Unseen member appear as Blue Dragon tonight. Unlimited uses.

Now the Mastermind or the Assassin can appear as Blue Dragon Day 6,7,8,9,10… this is a really bad change, Sheriffs will be more Useless if Unseen gets and Herbalist.

Noble & Aristocrat:
Snoop limited to 1 use. Improved Snoop, so that the journals will now transfer over when converted.

When you re-added Noble and Aristocrat, i was really happy, Noble is actually not the best Blue Dragon class, but he could check 2 players logs, making him a good “Evil-Catcher” member of the court.

Now if he gets an empthy log, he become useless. He cant get another log to investigate more.

Physician:
Renamed to Medic and recieved new night abilities.
Night Ability First Aid - Heal a player back to life if they were attacked.
Night Ability Quarantine - Heal a player’s poison and bleeding, and prevent all visitors. Can only be used on a player once.

This is, by a long shot, the worst change in the patch.
Now the “Medic” (Terrible name for this class by the way) can only heal poison once… What if the Alchemist did not spawn in the game? what if the other physician is dead? What if Alchemist decides to side with evil?

Now the Cult leader/Assassin can just wait until 1 healer is dead and start poisoning/bleeding people, and they will not get healed twice.

Princess:
Flirt now show Killer/Support and Offensive/Social.
Will-o-Wisp changed - Discover a player’s faction. 3 uses.

This one is actually, the second worst change in the patch.

Killer/Support? this gives you no info at all, Mercenarys will get executed, Alchemist will need to prove themselves even more, and people will start to execute Healers.

Just ask yourself this: What will people do if they get a Neutral being Killer/Support and NK is alive? Buy the Alchemist claim?

Also, Princess now has a 3 uses “Allies!” ability. If you wanted to remove it from the king because it was too powerful, Why do you add it to a class who can spawn twice on a game?

Sorcerer:
Magic Dust uses reduced to 2.
Circle of Death uses reduced to 2.
New Day Ability Magic Cloak - Hides your visits at night. 2 uses.

No words. Sorcerer was actually the most weak Neutral killer in the game, Sorc can die Night 1, Circle of Death was not that useful, and you are nerfing it more.

Now inquisitor has more chances to not get fooled by magic dust since Sorc can hide visits now…

Duchess:
Dark Wisp changed - Discover a player’s class. 2 uses.

This ability is almost the same as other classes has… whats the point on Duchess getting this change?

I just… dont like the patch at all. I know you are amazing devs and you will hear us. But in my opinion, this is a gamechanger patch. And a boring one.

Good night.

EDIT: I want to say something more about Princess and Duchess:

Yea, its not the same getting accused by King “Allies!” than this new Wisp, but, there is logs, and when Princess dies, the logs will say: WOW (Number) UNSEEN/CULT/NEUTRAL, so its the same afterwards.

And Duchess, yea, they added it because it was removed from other classes, but i think it was a mistake since she needed another ability, this maybe will make Duchess more efective but its not what she needs. Thats all.

[Livicus]

I’m iffy with the Noble change, the King change is alright, although Order wasn’t my choice replacement, and MM, Assassin, Enforcer were all good.

However, agreeing with you, Physician (Never Medic) , Herbalist, Princess, and Duchess are all poor changes in my opinion. I was one of the people who was fervent on removing Allies from King. Now, we get 6 charges of Allies on two Princesses instead… counterintuitive? The whole point wasnxt too nerf King, it was to stop the Neuts Out meta, and now with the Princesses changes especially, it’s gotten far worse than before.

[Vandalay]

@Cuatrolan

Also, Princess now has a 3 uses “Allies!” ability. If you wanted to remove it from the king because it was too powerful, Why do you add it to a class who can spawn twice on a game?

This one I have to disagree with you on… the reason why king’s “allies” was such a pain, wasn’t just that it was powerful, it was uncontestable. You can’t possibly shed doubt onto the fact that your accuser, is in fact the king… and that it would be insanely stupid for an evil or neutral king to lie about a check early game…

Princess on the other hand… could be a scorned, could be a lying assasain or Cult leader, could be any number of things. The only way princess was super confirmable was if she used her whisp already, which… is gone.

I’m not saying I fully support the idea of this being a 3 use check… but I’ll take it over allies 100x over, because it still leaves the contest of claims on the table.

[Ashe]

@Cuatrolan

As long as I really liked Allies, I can understand a nerf or the remove of the ability. But “Order” is a joke.

Now neutral kings will always lose, Starting kings will start to get executed Day 4, and there is Nights when the kings has literally nothing to do but Guard Himself. What a shame.

For a start, I sincerely doubt a “execute all Kings” meta will arise from this, since King is still valuable as a leader (rather than an investigative). Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that you have to use an ability every night. You obviously don’t have to, and it would make more sense to guard people you feel are important when it’s deemed necessary instead of burning your guards on yourself just because there’s a button there to click.

@Cuatrolan

Now the Mastermind or the Assassin can appear as Blue Dragon Day 6,7,8,9,10… this is a really bad change, Sheriffs will be more Useless if Unseen gets and Herbalist.

I agree somewhat, but I feel like it’s a step in the right direction to actually making social deductions in game rather than just relying on investigative results.

@Cuatrolan

When you re-added Noble and Aristocrat, i was really happy, Noble is actually not the best Blue Dragon class, but he could check 2 players logs, making him a good “Evil-Catcher” member of the court.

Now if he gets an empthy log, he become useless. He cant get another log to investigate more.

Personally, I wasn’t a fan of Snoop all that much to begin with, so I don’t mind less of it. Not to mention that Noble is a social class, not investigative.

@Cuatrolan

This is, by a long shot, the worst change in the patch.

Now the “Medic” (Terrible name for this class by the way) can only heal poison once… What if the Alchemist did not spawn in the game? what if the other physician is dead? What if Alchemist decides to side with evil?

Now the Cult leader/Assassin can just wait until 1 healer is dead and start poisoning/bleeding people, and they will not get healed twice.

They can only heal a specific player once, and I assume it doesn’t carry over to other Medics. Not to mention this means there’s actually a way to take down high profile targets as Assassin/CL, even if it takes two nights.

@Cuatrolan

Killer/Support? this gives you no info at all, Mercenarys will get executed, Alchemist will need to prove themselves even more, and people will start to execute Healers.

Just ask yourself this: What will people do if they get a Neutral being Killer/Support and NK is alive? Buy the Alchemist claim?

Princess can be fake claimed fairly easily now, so not everyone will believe their results, and it’s much easier for Alch to claim Phys now, so the Alch can avoid suspicion that way too. On the other side of the coin than Killer/Support though, you have Offensive/Social, which actually gives you a lot of information about what someone’s class could be, due to the lower amount of classes in those categories. I think it’s a change that will have to get playtesting to truly see the effect of, but I don’t think it’ll be a negative one.

@Cuatrolan

Also, Princess now has a 3 uses “Allies!” ability. If you wanted to remove it from the king because it was too powerful, Why do you add it to a class who can spawn twice on a game?

The reason it was strong on King is because there was little reason for a Neutral/Evil King to fake their Allies results, so anyone who a King claimed showed up Neutral or Evil almost certainly was. On a class that isn’t automatically confirmed to be that class, it isn’t as problematic.

@Cuatrolan

No words. Sorcerer was actually the most weak Neutral killer in the game, Sorc can die Night 1, Circle of Death was not that useful, and you are nerfing it more.

Now inquisitor has more chances to not get fooled by magic dust since Sorc can hide visits now…

I’m surprised you haven’t seen the point of these changes. The problem (that is admittedly only somewhat helped by this) is that it’s really hard for Inquisitor to find the Sorcerer, but really easy for BD to find them. Less magic dust but the ability to hide their visit means this is closer to being reversed. Personally, I still think Sorcerer should appear as Blue Dragon to Blue Dragon investigators, but I’m happy to see how these changes affect Sorc games before calling for any more change.

@Cuatrolan

This ability is almost the same as other classes has… whats the point on Duchess getting this change?

It was removed from Nightwatch, and I believe that means the only other class with the same ability is Seeker.

@Cuatrolan

I just… dont like the patch at all. I know you are amazing devs and you will hear us. But in my opinion, this is a gamechanger patch. And a boring one.

Good night.

I’d say it’s worth waiting until it’s out to make your decision on how the patch will play, but maybe that’s just me. Good night

[NuclearBurrito]

@Cuatrolan

As long as I really liked Allies, I can understand a nerf or the remove of the ability. But “Order” is a joke.

Now neutral kings will always lose, Starting kings will start to get executed Day 4, and there is Nights when the kings has literally nothing to do but Guard Himself. What a shame.

Replace Neut king with more BD king. Both problems solved.

@Cuatrolan

Now the Mastermind or the Assassin can appear as Blue Dragon Day 6,7,8,9,10… this is a really bad change, Sheriffs will be more Useless if Unseen gets and Herbalist.

Agree. I don’t think it’s OP like you do but it is boring compared to Defile.

@Cuatrolan

When you re-added Noble and Aristocrat, i was really happy, Noble is actually not the best Blue Dragon class, but he could check 2 players logs, making him a good “Evil-Catcher” member of the court.

Now if he gets an empthy log, he become useless. He cant get another log to investigate more.

An empty log is usually an evil. A filled log is inherently useful. Now you can get either or but not both.

@Cuatrolan

This is, by a long shot, the worst change in the patch.

Now the “Medic” (Terrible name for this class by the way) can only heal poison once… What if the Alchemist did not spawn in the game? what if the other physician is dead? What if Alchemist decides to side with evil?

Now the Cult leader/Assassin can just wait until 1 healer is dead and start poisoning/bleeding people, and they will not get healed twice.

Agree 100%. Also quarantine makes him confirmable which is also a bad thing. I also just realized that this is terrible for hunter.

@Cuatrolan

Killer/Support? this gives you no info at all, Mercenarys will get executed, Alchemist will need to prove themselves even more, and people will start to execute Healers.

This is actually really good. It adds claimspace for everyone. It’s still useful because the whole point of a class like this is to predict what someone probably is without finding out if they are actually good or not. These results still do that. Remember that Offensive and Social classes are impossible to fake claim. You can now catch fools, converted Hunters and in cult games converted Knights. Plus you can still catch Herbalists who are offensive. The most useful results: Special/invest is also unchanged.

@Cuatrolan

Also, Princess now has a 3 uses “Allies!” ability. If you wanted to remove it from the king because it was too powerful, Why do you add it to a class who can spawn twice on a game?

I think you were forgetting why it was so powerful. The problem wasn’t that it existed, the problem is that it was on the king in particular. This is a problem because kings can’t be counterclaimed or converted. Princess right now isn’t even convertable so it’s a non-issue. Plus it was also removed from Obs who was convertable. The real problem is the removal of old wisp which was a very interesting Ability.

@Cuatrolan

No words. Sorcerer was actually the most weak Neutral killer in the game, Sorc can die Night 1, Circle of Death was not that useful, and you are nerfing it more.

Did we even read the same text? Sorc was clearly buffed by this. Now she has protection from Inquisitor AND Observer.

@Cuatrolan

This ability is almost the same as other classes has… whats the point on Duchess getting this change?

Princess got Obs peek so Duchess got Nightwatch peek. Nuff said there I like this change. Duchess sucked before.

[Livicus]

On the topic of Sorc, hiding your visits is a great step, but I still feel Magic Dust should be removed, Circle of Death goes to 3 uses, and an ability that will show as BD to BD investigators would be the perfect Sorc:
Quite difficult to be found by BD, but can be found by Unseen/Cult and recruited to their side, or hunted down by the Inquisitor.

[NuclearBurrito]

@Ashe

Not to mention that Noble is a social class, not investigative.

You guys DO realize that snoop is a social ability correct? The game state does not effect the results of a successful Snoop.

[Ashe]

I was saying that in response to “He can’t get another log to investigate more”.

[Livicus]

Best Sorc:

Current Passives

Magic Missile (Night)(oo)

Circle of Death (Night)(3)

Visit Cloak (Day)(2)

Innocent Deceit (Day)(2)
Show as BD to BD Investigative abilities

[NuclearBurrito]

Social Ability’s other than vote manip serve the same end goal as invest abilitys. Psychics Ability is uses for Investigating too.

[Cuatrolan]

I edited the thread, i think i did not said enough about my opinion with Duchess/Princess, so I updated.

[NuclearBurrito]

@Cuatrolan

Yea, its not the same getting accused by King “Allies!” than this new Wisp, but, there is logs, and when Princess dies, the logs will say: WOW (Number) UNSEEN/CULT/NEUTRAL, so its the same afterwards.

Same thing applied to Obs exept he was confirmable. No one was calling for Obs to loose it because having SOMEONE that can find Neuts was never the problem. The problem was that someone being the king.

[Cuatrolan]

Thread closed. devs added a new Patch notes. please dont reply on this post. Thank you.