[VFM] JoaT^2 - (6/15) - 😹 Pirates (Town) Win!

[Leafia]

I had Ele moved down due to what happened at EoD 1 and rethinking about his slot and you can’t expect someone not to wonder why you’re agreeing with someone that happens to be their top scumread at the moment when they’re in a slight argument with said top scumread.

[Leafia]

Ouch. Have you tried icy hot or bengay?

[Wisp]

ok that is fair

@Wazza
feel better

[Leafia]

I will admit that you’re looking a bit better due to.this discussion between us. I can also confidently say that you and Ele and never w/w here due to this.

[Wazza]

Nah, it usually heals itself over time, like I’m feeling a lot better now.

Anyway, I’m extremely confused about what’s going on because you guys seem to be going like wavy lines since at first I thought you two were arguing but then you seemed to be on the same page that I just don’t understand what is going on.

[Leafia]

I think we were arguing at first and I’m glad that you’re feeling better now.

[Leafia]

Elephas, why’d you like the fact that we mislynched Ash D1?

[Elephas]

Katze’s reads:

sulit

@katze

i dont get why me predicting what you’d do is town AI of me

and i obviously disagree that im conscious about what i post as scum even though my last wolf game would support that theory, every other wolf game i’ve had (bar my very first) doesn’t support this

@katze

meta wise sulits doing okay

i was on her ass in her first few posts in her last wolf game and she’s kind of repeated something that pinged me in said wolf game (giving me an early townread) except in that game her justification was objectively false whereas here it feels more natural and, well, isn’t objectively false

@katze

sulit actually making a push on D1 is >rand V

bonus points because it felt real

@katze

fair

my standards are slightly low for a sulit D1 push and i think she met them

its more the fact that shes not just hiding in the sidelines and making shy noises really

@katze

when sulit is a wolf they don’t want to exist

when sulit is a villager they usually want to exist

sulit wants to exist

sulit is very likely to be town

if sulits WiM suddenly drops in the next day (Day 2) then be very cautious of them as they can somewhat feign wanting to exist as a wolf but struggle to keep up the facade for long

her WiM sometimes dies as a villager too but its usually much later in the game

@katze

Why

I’ll admit she’s been somewhat absent in the latter half of today but her first half of the day was fairly towny

Also when you saw my read list you didn’t even comment on sulit despite voting her, whys that

@katze

In the former half of the day I’d disagree with your assessment

I probably should be a bit more concerned on how they’ve slowed down

@katze

I don’t see it

I think if she continues to not exist that she should be yeeted tomorrow maybe

Not really considering a soolit yet today tho

He gives sulit a tentative townlean based on meta, then states that their push on Wazza is a good look. Please pay attention to the fact that katze said that if sulit drops in activity, they are likely scum. This is important to note.
Make sure this player stays active, and make sure they are providing real content, not just posting to look active.

---

Vulgard

[quote=“katze, post:310, topic:83078, full:true”]
my only reservation with vulgard at the moment is

posts

@katze

@Vulgard

This is the exact same reaction I got last time I correctly townread him as town, so yeah. Lock it in.

Something’s up with kat this game, I think. Their entrance felt… slow. Like they tried to settle into the thread as easily as possible (by voting sulit) instead of doing it naturally. Don’t know if it makes sense, but it’s worth a vote fmpov.

/vote katze
[/quote]

elaborate on this thought

@Vulgard

I no longer think that after you wrote this, so any explanation is going to be moot.

@katze

what post of mine changed your mind?

@Vulgard

Literally the one I responded to, I think the way you’re handling my slot is very consistent with your villagery thought process in the last FoL.

But this time, we can actually solve the game together instead of going after each other. You in?

i don’t fully understand or follow his thought process here

it doesn’t feel natural?

but the rest of his posting seems fine

i’ll probably have a 100% read on vulgard by EoD anyway

@katze

their posts were most likely written by a villager

that’s the easiest way to describe my read on him but i know he hates it so i’ll try to explain it as best as i can

when vulgard is a villager, his posts have a certain level of genuineness that he is really not good at replicating as a wolf

his level of fake solving as a wolf is good at face value, but when you look at it under a microscope they’re much weaker posts than when he’s a villager

and his posts have not felt like his wolf posts

but generally when vulgard is a villager you’ll see one post and its like

“this post cannot ever come from wolf!Vulgard”

i have not seen that post

but i don’t hate his posts

so he’s probably just town

@katze

i saw him in thread and remembered that i hadn’t seen much of him for a while

like i said in my thoughts posts he didn’t have that one post that convinced me he was a villager yet

but his posting has been fine and since then (just caught up) I think he’s still moderately towny

still haven’t seen the post to lock it in though

(also the wording was half a reference to a prior game)

@katze

at the end of it i didn’t scumread him

i thought those specific posts were odd but i thought the rest of his posts were fine

when vulgard is a wolf i usually hate almost all of his posts, especially his entrances and when he’s under pressure

@katze

i just realized vulgards opening posts are selfvoting and calling himself a wolf (historically they’re more memey as a wolf but they’ve toned their memeiness up as a villager somewhat)

and the fact they’re still yet to write a post that never comes from wolfgard

@katze

dont think i’d yeet him today still

but had i seen that earlier i’d probably have been more wary on him

I highlighted the sentences I see as important.

In an early post, katze said that he is fairly comfortable reading Vulgard, and likely the best in the thread at doing so. He stated that by the end of the day, he would have a “100% read,” yet states that Vulgard is probably a villager. This is not 100%.

I do think that if katze were killed for any of his reads, it is very likely this one.
Although he ended up townleaning Vulgard, it is quite clear that katze is good at reading this player, and if katze were not killed early, he may have called Vulgard out as scum.

If katze were killed late, this read would likely be treated almost as a check upon his VT flip.

---

Elephas

@katze

level 0 take: a wolf probably doesn’t write essentially the same thing twice in one post like this

i’d say im fairly okay at reading him, and of the playerlist i’d like to think im the best at it since arete is a host

by end of day i’ll probably have a fairly confident read on him, i just need him to post more

@katze

i just realized your profile picture wasn’t zulrah

i think elephas has a decent mindset

@Elephas

As I can only choose a single player to vote at a time, I have a Finger of Suspicion on Leafia, Wiisp, Vulgard. Vulgard is no longer in the thread or I would place a vote there.

i don’t know why i like this because i think it’s objectively not very AI but it shows that they’re using their vote with intent to actually get something out of someone in thread

plus the fact they have a tentative scumread on vulgard, see that i’ve expressed some level of competence in reading vulgard, and bring it up to me is a good look for them – not at all unfakable, but it’s notable

they also continue to interact with vulgard quite a bit, and it feels like they’re actually trying to solve that slot

i don’t think anything this slot has done is unfakable by a wolf but it’s fairly villagery

Please make your own conclusions regarding katze’s take on my slot. I have included all relevant quotes.

---

SirDerpsAlot

@katze

ngl derps is a bitch to read , he’s pretty aware of his scummeta and is moderately good at replicating his townmeta

i kind of think their posts are >rand V at the moment

@SirDerpsAlot

I decided I want to try harder this game and get actually better

this post scares me

because derps undoubtedly enjoys playing scum more than town

but that post is abnormal

it scares me because i feel like this is a post derps can write as an excuse to be more invested and blend in to his scum meta

he’s generally less invested as a villager and this post could be him actually wanting to change that, i don’t particularly remember derps ever making efforts of improving his towngame

imo don’t let derps live to LyLo (because he’s usually a wolf if hes alive at LyLo) but prob don’t yeet him yet

I highlighted the sentences I see as important. Please heed katze’s words. Keep an eye on this player.

Katze seemed to be unsure on this player. While “their posts are >rand V at the moment,” they make sure to point out that SirDerpsAlot is a rather comfortable wolf, and is perhaps hiding his enthusiasm for randing wolf in the form of an attempt at a new meta’ “I decided I want to try harder this game and get actually better.”

Heed katze’s words and do not allow this player to live to LYLO.

---

Centuries

@katze

Centuries

i don’t really know conroys (thats centuries btw, i can call him that cause we’re cool like that ) scummeta

but i’ve consistently seen his posts as villagery

they don’t really feel like they have agenda in their posting

their thought process feels good and mostly transparent

i like conboi

This seems to be a townlean? He does not sound extremely confident in his read on Centuries, but mentions that he sees no evidence of agenda.
I do not think katze was killed for this read, at least. They do not seem confident in their ability to read this player.

---

CatLover

@katze

jokes aside i find myself agreeing with a lot of their posts

a couple things they’ve said have pinged me though as being lightly LAMIST or what feels like someone forcing themselves to be agreeable

@CatLover

Why don’t you townread me for the same reasons? I’m not saying you should, but I’m genuinely interested what you think I am lacking and what they have.

but i also just think this instance of it is more likely to come from a villager just because i think a wolf would be self aware enough to just not write it

@katze

i mighta put cat a bit too high fwiw

but i wouldn’t yeet it today

and thats a large basis of what im looking for right now

@katze

while i’m mildly entertained that yet another person has fallen into the “it’s impossible to read katze” trap (trust me, you are far from the first)

i feel like you’re forcing yourself to come to a conclusion given that i guarantee i’d write that exact same post regarding my past game as a wolf, because i am slightly sour about it

can you elaborate how your read progressed on me as you went deeper into my ISO?

A townlean/read. I can’t quite tell how confident he was on this, but it is good to note that had had very little to say on CatLover.
If katze was not killed in a PR hunt, he was not killed for this read.

---

Wazza

@katze

im pretty sure wazza likes randing wolf enough that this is less likely to come from wolf!wazza

@Wisp

its behavior that shouldnt come from either alignment

but i can’t argue with this

@katze

@Elephas

@katze

their “im VT i hate this game” post is >rand V

I would like you to go into more detail on this please. Many people have said this before you, so I’m not truly inclined to believe in this read.

it removes “lol im joat don’t yeet me” from someone arsenal of defenses as a wolf

[/quote]

Katze had a town(read?) on Wazza for their claim of VT early into the game. They do not seem to go back on this.

---

CallMeIo

@katze

i didnt really remember too many of their posts initially so i took a reread

i dont really feel like they’re doing anything except making their own towncore

like they feel like they just exist in thread and i don’t feel like they add very much to it

@CallMeIo

However, I feel that Flameo’s response was genuine. I think scum would have said it differently.

He might be scum but I’m not going to jump to any conclusions yet.

like this is a unique thought

but there’s no meat to this bone, and the conclusion is second guessing themselves

@Leafia

Leafia: The hosts messed up and gave me her rolecard. Locktown.

@CallMeIo

Call me Bias.

But I TR Leafia for Bolded .

this too

why do you TR leafia for a joke that isn’t that uncommon on this site

the quotes kinda broke so im quarantining them here

[quote=“CallMeIo, post:346, topic:83078”]

[quote=“Moleland, post:192, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

Even though I’m Town)

[/quote]

What does this even mean?
[/quote]

It means that my Rolecard is Green!

[quote=“CallMeIo, post:357, topic:83078, full:true”]

[quote=“Moleland, post:264, topic:83078”]

[quote=“Moleland, post:192, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

(Even though I’m Town)

[/quote]

What does this even mean?
[/quote]

This comment is a ‘Duh’ moment. There’s no reason to add the ‘Even though I’m town’ part of this post. It’s not like you can be friendly neutral in this game.

/Vote callmelo
[/quote]

Well I didn’t want anyone to jump to any conclusions.
If I didn’t say what I said someone might misunderstand what I’m trying to say.

[quote=“CallMeIo, post:403, topic:83078”]

@Moleland

But… Why was this comment needed?
[/quote]

Re-Quote my post and remove that comment and see for yourself.

[quote=“CallMeIo, post:432, topic:83078”]

@Wisp

Tempted to just policy vote Mole for 429
[/quote]

But will you?
/Vote Mole
How about now?

[quote=“CallMeIo, post:565, topic:83078”]

@Wisp

I have a wolf PoE of like

Elephas/ Mole /Flameo, dont know if that makes sense as a team, but on an individual level they all bring posts that I hate
[/quote]

I don’t mind this PoE.
Not sure on Flameo, but the other 2 seem fine.

@CallMeIo

Tier D - Good Chance to be Scum

Elephas
Mole

the progression on moleland here feels kinda wack

as far as i can tell i quoted every post in their ISO regarding moleland

wouldn’t mind seeing this player yeeted atm

wanna hear more progression from them though
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

I highlighted sentences that I think are important.

Also please ignore all of the [/quote]s. I was too lazy to fix every quote individually, and if I remove a single [/quote] it destroys the post.

This is one of katze’s strongest reads, as he ended up voting on this wagon at the end of the day, and even suggested a CFD to it.
I think it is very important that we make sure this player contributes to the thread, as katze said they are simply existing, and he wants to see more progression.
If katze was not killed in a PR hunt, this is another read that could have contributed to him being selected as the nightkill.

---

Leafia

@katze

meh

their OMGUS attitude is consistent throughout most of their games, regardless of alignment

i’ve noticed progression in their posts (notably with wisp)

i don’t really know how to differentiate town and scum leafia honestly

if it becomes necessary to do so later, i might dive into her past games to see if i can find any notable differences

[…]
(Quotes broke. Click to expand the post if you want to read all context)
[…]

i don’t like how they responded in this string of posts

but this isn’t abnormal for town!leafia

atm i don’t think the slot should live to LyLo if it comes to that without some serious evaluation

@katze

@CallMeIo

Which of Leafia and Mole is more Town to you?

i dont strongly TR either

if i had to pick one or the other at this exact moment i’d pick moleland

but i plan to look at leafia closer later

Katze had Leafia has a slight townlean. This is another player that he believes should not live until LYLO, along with SirDerpsAlot.
Please keep this in mind if they live very long.

---

Moleland

@katze

i think ive seen people give moleland scumreads for antagonizing leafia

i don’t think it’s necessary but he did it in WoW:BFAv2 as Town (where Leafia was a LW) and thus i don’t think it should be taken as scum AI

don’t believe ive ever actually played a game with mole (i was spectating the above mentioned game, rooting for my sister )

[…]
(Quotes broke. Click to expand the post if you want to read all context)
[…]

moleland has 75 posts and i don’t feel like they’ve done much other than antagonize leafia, and while i don’t think specifically antagonizing leafia is scum!AI for mole

[…]
given the lack of content from this slot i’d like to see their readlist

[…]
while this post doesn’t really explain what they’re seeing in that 20%

i feel like this is a villagery post?

it’s… a weird reason to townread someone, and part of me feels like this was a townread first and a conclusion second

just don’t think a wolf writes this kind of read very often about a villager and i don’t think moleland/leafia is W/W

im not super confident on this because it’s about the only thing good the slot has imo and its only good because its fucking weird lmao

Katze has a slight townlean on this slot, moreso than Leafia. It looks to be a TWTBAW read.
Moleland spent a majority of yesterday “antagonizing Leafia.” Please make sure they expand their horizons and look at other players as well.

---

ash4fun

@katze

opening two posts are okay at a glance but don’t seem to have any sort of immediate followup

half of his iso proceeding that is just self defense with a few okay sounding posts sprinkled inbetween, but nothing super impressive

@ash4fun

I feel like a wolf here does more to make leafia look bad.

i feel like this lightly TMIs Leafia as a villager if ash flips W (and CatLover to an extent)

@ash4fun

Actually so far I think I might just be sheeping them now o.o

kinda hate this as well tbh

feels very performative/extra with the o.o at the end

@ash4fun

Okay so I’m halfway done with a full readslist. Going to dinner soon and will probably come back to finish it around 7 or smth.

not sure what timezone you’re in

but since its almost 10 here and im in the best timezone

impatient katze noises

fine with this getting yote today

@katze

i dont hate ash wagon but i already explained why i lightly TR mole

ashs readlist didnt rly make me feel better about the slot

Dead VT. Good to note, however, that katze does not have “godreads.” (Which, is to be expected. Quite a few of us, including me, thought ash would flip scum).

---

Wiisp

@katze

last VC i saw this nerd was at 3 so i expect to see some spice here

[…]

i don’t really understand why people thought this was scummy

me making a joke about being in scumchat is a thing i’ve done in the past but that’s because i’m a fucking weirdo and wispp has only played with me once (and they replaced out because that game was a shitshow) so its not like they can know i’m a memer like that, even if i was doing similar jokes in that game i wouldn’t really put it past them to mentally block that games existence forever in their head

like, i don’t fully believe that wisp genuinely believes that that post is me openwolfing, but i don’t believe they wrote that in a fully serious matter

but if they genuinely believed that was me openwolfing then they’re a nerd

[…]

judging by the fact they’re questioning someone elses vote on me i feel like it wasn’t serious though

[…]

fair tbh
but still
sad noises

i want to say that wisps posts on me “openwolfing” are AI but i don’t really feel like they lean a specific direction

[…]

i kind of vibe with this post but i don’t know why

its a dumb post

but i vibe

[…]

wait i didnt even notice this LMAO

im sorry wispp we’re not usually this bad

okay i am, but not vulgard

tbh reading the rest of their ISO i don’t lean very far in any direction

don’t think i want them yeeted yet just 'cause i don’t think they’re the scummiest person alive

their posts basically suggesting to PK wazza are kinda but meh

im slapping you a null

eager to see how you read my slot though since seeing how people treat a slot i have TMI on makes it easier to gauge their alignment

@katze

shrug

there’s posts you’ve made that go both ways for me

Katze has Wiisp as a complete null. “There’s posts you’ve made that go both ways for me.”

---

Flameo

@katze

[…]
i like the fact that flameo likes the fact that we had similar questions, which didn’t feel intentful

jokes aside the fact we melded here makes me like this slot a bit already

i think #788 is a post more likely to come from town than scum

its nitpicking at very specific aspects of a post that make it very clear that they’re closely reading everything vulgard is saying

and when they catch something they think is they don’t turn it into an immediate scumread or anything, they stop to consider possibilities from an objective standpoint

which doesn’t feel agenda-like

[…]

vulgard is then notably absent from this list

i feel like in worlds where this is a wolf and vulgard is a villager (i believe vulgard is a villager atm) that they’d never forget vulgard on this list

they explain it in a further post and it doesn’t look like they specifically forgot vulgard but i still think his absense is very notable

this slot kinda vibing well with me

Townlean/townread. Does not believe Flameo has agenda, and believes their nitpicking, and willingness to view players from an objective standpoint (rather than OMGUSing) is townie.

---

gorta

@katze

gorta yeet is semi acceptable

from his past games this game doesn’t feel very aligned with either his wolf or town games, he’s usually a bit more involved

with that said his wolf games all have asterisks next to them, as in they were LW, replaced in, or didn’t last long

Nonexistent. But was fine with their lynch.

---

Readlist

@katze

joycat tier
katze

Townreads
[for the low price of $9.99, you can be here!]

Upper Townleans
soolit
Vulgard
Centuries

Townleans
CatLover
Elephas
Flameo

Weak Townleans
Moleland
Wazza
Derps

nullzone
Leafia
Wispp
an_gorta_pratai (play the game you signed up for please)

Bad Vibes Zone
ash4fun
CallMeIo

I am including this for the sake of completion. I do not want to cherrypick. Please do not use this as close to a main reason for why katze was killed.
Look at the reasons why players were placed where they are.

---

I am so exhausted

Please read at least the conclusions on every player.

If katze was not killed in a PR-hunt, they were likely killed for their ability to read Vulgard, or their read on Io.

I have to go for a bit.
I need coffee.

/vote Vulgard @Arete

[Arete]

Vote Target	Voted by	Votes
sulit	Vulgard	1/7
Elephas	Leafia	1/7
Vulgard	Flameo, Wiisp, Elephas	3/7

[Leafia]

Starting to consider the possibility that I was wrong about Ele being scum, but I want to see how Vulgard reacts to the wagon on him before deciding one way or another. Because Elephas didn’t consider another possibility.

That possibility is that Katze was the N1 kill to set up a mislynch on Vulgard.

The fact remains that wolves won’t usually kill a ppl later that has a townread on them, no matter how weak it is, especially this early.

I mean, it’s possible. Just not likely.

[sulit]

inb4 kat nailed all the scum

[Leafia]

I wonder if the deadchat has been informed of who the scum is.

[Leafia]

I’m also glad that Leafia dying N1 as town didn’t become a meme.

[SirDerpsAlot]

Tinfoil

Katze was killed for bad reads

[SirDerpsAlot]

And scum are using said bad reads to set up myslynches

[SirDerpsAlot]

Also I told you all ash was town but yk

[SirDerpsAlot]

/Vote Catlover

[Elephas]

Okay going to reply to a few things.

@Flameo

Vulgard DID NOT CARE, whatsoever what was happening at EoD. Their intended target as Mole was not getting the majority, but they made zero effort to solve later on in day 1 or get the lynch back on Mole. They were completely fine letting Ash take the axe. They telegraphed this earlier as being their plan and already frame me for a town flip, because I am one of the few people that actually are reading Vulgard in full and how terrible their ISO is, so it serves him to discredit me. Please take your time and read through it. It consists of just pockets all around early game.

The fact that I was going to point out these exact posts is a good look for Flameo. I genuinely mindmelded with them on this. Overnight I did a slight bit of analysis, but didn’t have time to re-read a whole lot.

I actually had the thought-process that if Vulgard is scum, you (Flameo) or katze would be the nightkill target.
However, it is possible that katze was killed in a PR hunt. I don’t really see a reason for this though. Maybe someone else can take a dive.

@Wisp

you are totally a selfish player, I’ve played with a few others on MTGS like this
but this willl end up burying the thread if I decide to get into it with you
its not worth it

I don’t think calling other players selfish will help anything. Making people angry by insulting them will just skew their opinion on you, and cloud their judgement.

@Leafia

I can also confidently say that you and Ele and never w/w here due to this.

We are indeed not Wolf/Wolf, as I am town. But I would like your reasoning for this.

@Leafia

Elephas, why’d you like the fact that we mislynched Ash D1?

I liked the post as I appreciate the hosts. No other reason.

@Leafia

That possibility is that Katze was the N1 kill to set up a mislynch on Vulgard.

Occam’s razor says no.
As a wolf, you don’t set up mislynches like this this early into the game.
You get players out who are correct on you, or have the ability to read you well, otherwise you won’t even live to set up mislynches in the first place.

That, or you kill them in an attempt to kill a PR.

@SirDerpsAlot

Tinfoil

Katze was killed for bad reads

I’m glad this is a tinfoil.

I do not think this is the case.
If it is the case, we should not truly consider it until we flip someone who katze scumread, and go from there.

Dead people died for a reason, and more often than not, it is because they were on to something.

At this current moment, which, keep in mind, is very early, my lynchpool is: Io, gorta, Vulgard.

[Arete]

Vote Target	Voted by	Votes
sulit	Vulgard	1/7
Elephas	Leafia	1/7
Vulgard	Flameo, Wiisp, Elephas	3/7
CatLover	SirDerpsAlot	1/7

[Elephas]

Balancing Possibilities Versus Probabilities - MafiaWiki

A good tool.

Off I go again.