[VFM] JoaT^2 - (6/15) - 😹 Pirates (Town) Win!

[sulit]

any who brb

[Centuries]

Vulgard as scum TMI’d me as town with his usage of meta on my slot in that one fol game

Seeing how he hasn’t done that yet at least said it out loud

Town Vul

ok that’s it

[CatLover]

Thoughts after reading Moleland’s posts:

I… I still think he lacks conviction in all honesty! Originally, his Wiisp push looked okay, but under the surface, a lot of it looks like he’s just throwing things at a wall and sees what sticks!

He spends a lot of posts calling Wiisp an “obvious wolf”, but is still just entirely pre-flipping.

@Moleland

Also has spent most of the day filling the thread with hating lo who is obvious town here.

@Moleland

Targetting LHF

in what is his big Wiisp wall, his ultimate case, there is no reasoning that presents anything AI. I posted the above preflips, here are the other reasons.

@Moleland

@Wisp

this has nothing to do with playstyle, his posts suck

Dictionary definition of an OMGUS read on me

@Moleland

@Wisp

Who wants to join the anti-Lo fan club?

This is a stupid question - Scum trying to look casual?

He doesn’t explain how Wiisp’s read is OMGUS, nor why OMGUS is wolfy! And then he just says that Wiisp’s question is “stupid” (his words, not mine, sorry), and that Wiisp was scum trying to look casual. But he does not answer why the post is silly, or why he it means he is Scum trying to look casual!

I see no inner fire or desire behind it. He’s just throwing buzzwords at Wiisp, but his actual points are devoid of logical reasoning or thought process. For most tunnels from townies, you can almost always see the reason. It might be really silly, sure, but there is always an identifiable reason. Here, there is no reasons why he thinks Wiisp is scum. This wall is a cluttered mess of super shallow reasoning, and I think he just wanted to Push Wiisp or make Wiisp look bad (from the start) and not actually push Wiisp for specific reasons.

[CatLover]

Not sure how close we are to Maj (@Arete, @DatBird?), but if we aren’t in danger, I will very likely be placing my vote on him.

His posts against Wiisp are shallow and devoid of reasoning. There is nothing he’s latched on to, it feels like there’s nothing he can come up with but wants to push Wiisp anyways, which leads to him using shallow and likely fabricated reasoning.

[Moleland]

How can I preflip a wolfread because I read them as Wolf?

[Moleland]

Bottom of thread. 5 hours

[Vulgard]

@Centuries

Vulgard as scum TMI’d me as town with his usage of meta on my slot in that one fol game

Can you bring that one up? I’m curious.

[Leafia]

@Vulgard

I brought up the fact that reading Leafia confuses me, and her response to that was a string of posts which boiled down to “I am very town this game, even though I am hard to read.” Maybe I’m misinterpreting it, but that is the impression I got. It felt like she was putting on a performance to prove her towniness when it was being contested.

I have a hard time believing that T!Vulgard could possibly see what I said as LAMIST. I don’t honestly know if I would have said what I said as a wolf but basically admitting that you could be understandably read as either alignment isn’t LAMIST in the slightest.

@Elephas

In the instance I die, pay attention to this post

Vulgard is a villager. They are providing content that comes straight out of my brain at almost the speed of light.

Listen to Vulgard. He may be wrong at some points, but he is leading town in the right direction and has the mindset needed to win this game.

Do not pass my death off as “Elephas was killed so we would listen to Vulgard.” Do not lose this game because of deepwolf paranoia.

If Vulgard lives to LYLO or we keep mislynching villagers, you are free to re-assess.

I don’t think you’ve read everything that has gone on today. Vulgard is not town here. I’m convinced of that now. I personally feel that Mole v Vulgard has a high chance of being scum v scum too.

@Vulgard

@Leafia

How the heck is admitting that I could be either alignment with what I’ve been saying LAMIST!?! A villager absolutely never claims that I look LAMIST here. Only a wolf pushing agenda does.

Because it’s like “look, I am aware of how scummy I am, and I will not question any wolfreads on me.” The underlying message is that “a wolf would not admit to being wolfy, much less point it out, so the fact I’m genuine is towny and I need to evoke that impression.”

I’m not saying that had to be your intention, but that’s how I’m interpreting it at the moment. The fact you’re immediately suggesting I’m a wolf just because I pointed it out is strange.

Ask yourself this though. How is basically admitting that saying that I could theoretically be either alignment a LAMIST statement? I was just being honest with that. Honesty isn’t being LAMIST.

[CatLover]

You pushed Wiisp for attacking CallMeIo, and an_gorta_pratai. I’m not even going to get in to the fact that Wiisp was not even pushing an_gorta in that push, because it’s irrelevant. What is relevant is that you are claiming to, in part, mafia-read Wiisp because they are pushing players who you believe are town. That is the definiton of preflip associations!

[Vulgard]

@Leafia

Ask yourself this though. How is basically admitting that saying that I could theoretically be either alignment a LAMIST statement? I was just being honest with that. Honesty isn’t being LAMIST.

Because it’s pointless if you’re a villager, and it only serves to keep people convinced you’re Genuine and Town.

It’s not very alignment indicative by itself, but I read it as more scummy than towny.

I’m not even pushing you, it’s just something I found suspicious.

[Centuries]

there’s more to it

[Elephas]

This is every post I have to or regarding Vulgard. Please draw your own conclusions. This is not analysis, so you cannot say it has confirmation bias. It shows my genuine thought-process, and should be self-explanatory.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I am unironically townreading Derps for OwOing. I think as scum he either doesn’t care or makes fun of me, but here he’s expressing curiosity in the weirdest way possible.

Could be a faked post, obviously, but I don’t think wolf!Derps fakes that specific thing. So, yeah.

“Townread” implies this is a strong read, no? Can you tell me how certain of a player’s alignment you are if you town read them? We may vary on this.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Something’s up with kat this game, I think. Their entrance felt… slow. Like they tried to settle into the thread as easily as possible (by voting sulit) instead of doing it naturally. Don’t know if it makes sense, but it’s worth a vote fmpov.

I do not know the meta of katze, but I dislike their level of… memery. I hope they make themself more readable as the day progresses.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

“You should be doing things right now” is a wolfy excuse for an early vote on someone. That type of vote is also almost exclusively aimed at a villager (if it comes from a wolf).

If Flameo is a wolf, Io is likely town.

Interesting vote. “wolfy excuse,” then, in the next sentence, “almost exclusively” and “ if if comes from a wolf.” Very flip-floppy.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Because the mindset of town making an early vote isn’t “this person didn’t do awesome things with their early posts, so they must be a wolf.” It’s “this person did suspicious things early on, they must be a wolf.”

Jumping on a silly post that says something about scum being in the lowposters is a very low-level thought for a villager, and Flameo doesn’t come across as a very surface-level player.

I can’t believe I’m explaining this so elaborately.

I do like this explanation, but I wish there wasn’t a seesaw in the previous post I quoted.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I’m going to sleep and hoping that I won’t be waking up to hundreds of posts.

I was looking forward to interacting with you. Unfortunate.

@Elephas

Ah! Hello Vulgard and Flameo.
Here right as I am about to hit the hay. I suppose I can stay here a short while longer, as I wanted to interact with you two.

@Vulgard

And by the way, fake solving as mafia is fun too, but I’m still bad at it, so it’s more difficult.

Forgive me if I’m missing something, but is there a point to this post? It is rather confusing. I can’t tell if this is self-meta, or a joke. I don’t have a good understanding of who here uses sarcasm.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

How much do you care about me answering any of them?

If it helps motivate you, I would also appreciate answers to the questions Flameo asked - at least the non-hypotheticals. It may help me understand your thought-process in more detail.

@Elephas

Vulgard,
I don’t want to distract you as you catch up on the thread. I saw you mention that you were behind by three hundred posts.
Please do take your time.

@Vulgard

My post with the vote on Flameo is less complicated than you guys make it sound. I think it’s a wolfy vote, and I have an associative read if I’m right , but if I’m wrong, then the associative doesn’t exist. I prefer to make that clear so wolves don’t use that to misyeet two people in a row somehow.

@Elephas

I quite like this answer. Perhaps I was misunderstanding the wording you used alongside your vote.
You seem to believe this, and it does not sound like forced reasoning.

Thank you.

@Elephas

I started writing a response to your recent posts but I’m finding myself too tired to properly give my opinions coherently. That’s not fair to anyone; so I will be re-reading these in the morning after a cup of joe.

Vulgard, I do have an unrelated question though:
Katze has stated they have a rather strong ability to read you. Does this go both ways?

@Vulgard

@Elephas

Katze has stated they have a rather strong ability to read you. Does this go both ways?

No. I seldom read kat correctly, though I’ve progressively improved at it.
I feel like I’m reading their lower effort as scummy, when it’s not (at least inherently).

@Elephas

Thank you.

With that, I will be going to sleep. Unless you have any questions for me that do not require my neurons to be sending information at a rapid pace.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Towny exchange in my opinion, on both sides.

Possibly W/W too but I find both of them independently villagery. Sulit seems free-flowing and she’s far more level-headed as a wolf. Wisp’s borderline shitposting is a decent look because I think it shows a high level of comfort in the thread.

To be fair, I’ve never seen Wisp as a wolf, so this read might be meaningless meta-wise, but I think his posts are villagery independently from meta.

From somebody with no knowledge of these players’ meta, I have to say I disagree with your conclusions. I have not seen any posts from Sulit that scream “town.” Their play is a mixture of katze’s memeing and Centuries relaxed demeanor, but they have far too many one-liners and useless posts for my liking.
I don’t see Sulit actively getting anything done , and they have been focused on a single player for quite some time.

Wiisp is also a fairly high poster. I just went back through their Isolation, and while I agree that their shitposting shows that they are comfortable, there are parts of their thought-process that I can’t qutie understand. Perhaps if these were cleared up, I may feel better about this player.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Wazza claiming VT as one of the first things he did this game is unfortunately a villagery thing to do when you are under suspicion early.

I think I might not have enough experience to understand why this is villagery. Can you please explain? In my experience, claiming when under slight pressure can come from town or wolf alike. I also do not think we should promote this behavior.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

The fact we’re both townreading someone for similar reasons doesn’t make both of us town.

(I am quoting this as it is the final sentence in this large post). I do want to let you know that I am acknowledging the existence of this post, but I will be waiting for Flameo’s responses to you before I give my opinions.
Please feel free to hold me to this if I forget.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I wanna build a towncore.

sulit
Wisp
CatLover
Elephas
Centuries

Leafia?

Who’s in?

Interesting. I have to say that I disagree on sulit, Wisp, and Leafia.
Sulit for reasons stated above
Wisp, because though I may agree with you that their shitposting seems to show a level of comfort in the thread, they are not high enough of a townread for me to put her in the towncore.
Leafia because… just… read their Isolation. The player is either a wolf, for their terrible logic, unnecessary wallpost that feels disingenuous, fluffposting, and OMGUSing, or they are TWTBAW. Either way, they do not get to be in my towncore.

@Elephas

Edit after reading the rest of your posts from this time period:
I have to say that I have started to like you more as this day has progressed. I disliked a few of your earlier posts, but all recent posts from you have felt extremely genuine, and un-stilted. I have found that you are providing takes that I did not think of, and even slightly changed my mind on a few slots, such as Wiisp.
I very much like that you are focused on forming a towncore rather than hunting wolves, and you are actively re-evaluating players, such as sulit. You can be in my towncore.

I agree on both Cat and Centuries.

My early towncore would be Elephas, Cat, Vulgard, Centuries.

@Vulgard

@Elephas

I think I might not have enough experience to understand why this is villagery. Can you please explain? In my experience, claiming when under slight pressure can come from town or wolf alike. I also do not think we should promote this behavior.

We shouldn’t promote this, but I think it’s villagery because it’s stupid. You are removing yourself from the JOAT pool for no reason unless it’s random WIFOM. A wolf could theoretically do this, but I think most wolves wouldn’t.

Which is why I see it as >rand V.

@Vulgard

I’m contemplating whether I somehow progressed my reads exactly the way you wanted without knowing it, or if you said this to indirectly pocket me. Would be a high-level wolf play if it’s the latter.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

or if you said this to indirectly pocket me. Would be a high-level wolf play if it’s the latter.

You do not know my meta, so I cannot use it as a defense, but I can assure you that I am not attempting to pocket you.
If you have questions on my thought-process, I am more than willing to answer.

@Elephas

In an early post, katze said that he is fairly comfortable reading Vulgard, and likely the best in the thread at doing so. He stated that by the end of the day, he would have a “100% read,” yet states that Vulgard is probably a villager. This is not 100%.

I do think that if katze were killed for any of his reads, it is very likely this one.
Although he ended up townleaning Vulgard, it is quite clear that katze is good at reading this player, and if katze were not killed early, he may have called Vulgard out as scum.

If katze were killed late, this read would likely be treated almost as a check upon his VT flip.

@Elephas

Please read at least the conclusions on every player.

If katze was not killed in a PR-hunt, they were likely killed for their ability to read Vulgard, or their read on Io.

I have to go for a bit.
I need coffee.

/vote Vulgard

@Elephas

The fact that I was going to point out these exact posts is a good look for Flameo. I genuinely mindmelded with them on this. Overnight I did a slight bit of analysis, but didn’t have time to re-read a whole lot.

I actually had the thought-process that if Vulgard is scum, you (Flameo) or katze would be the nightkill target.
However, it is possible that katze was killed in a PR hunt. I don’t really see a reason for this though. Maybe someone else can take a dive.

@Elephas

At this current moment, which, keep in mind, is very early, my lynchpool is: Io, gorta, Vulgard.

@Elephas

It is quite early into the day. I want to see how Vulgard acts today, especially in response to a wagon forming on them.

Vulgard’s end-of-day was not a fantastic look, and, while I agree that his tone has been good, we should still consider the fact that the dead townie may have been on to something.

I see no issue with voting him at the moment. We have 45 hours until this day ends, and I plan on using all of this time to our advantage.

@Elephas

/unvote @Arete @DatBird

I like Vulgard’s recent posts. I still have suspicion on this player because of the nightkill, but I am open to re-evaluation. I will go into detail on this later. I am far too tired at the moment.

Vulgard can you explain why you believe wolves killed katze in a PR hunt? I did not see any posts from them that were indicative of them being a possible PR. But it could be a change in behavior from normal towngames, or something that I missed.

Good night.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

No? Kat thought I was V and the wolfreads were a meme. They admitted to it.

I suppose I worded this in an odd way. I meant “katze’s ability to read you.”

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I didn’t do much at EoD because I was preoccupied with other stuff. Sorry I’m not doing as much this game as I want to.

As frustrating as it is to have inactivity play a role in clearing people, your absence from End of Day does add up with your lack of presence during other key parts of this game. (For example, you left thread almost immediately at the Start of Day)

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I’ve been trying to build a towncore, but people are just doing their own thing. Well, I don’t have the thread presence to lead, so I guess it’s fine, just… try to work together more?

@Vulgard

What even is this gamestate? You all have deepwolf paranoia when we still have ~3 misyeets before YeetLo. Stop parking on the people who are actually doing things and start wagoning the people who haven’t been nearly towny enough to escape scrutiny.

@Vulgard

This place is a mess. There is no towncore and no cooperation, everyone is still just doing their own thing. Can you all just… stop going after each other and start trying to find town for a moment, and sort out disagreements?

I actually very much like these posts. They read as incredibly genuine, and have made me realize that I am incredibly focused on searching for wolves rather than finding town. A wolf would normally take advantage of this disorganization, as there is no towncore to follow; people are simply pursuing their own reads.

Let’s create a towncore. Applications are open.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I don’t actually expect to get killed this game basically ever unless I’m on the mark, so yeah, I’m gonna be here for a while, I suppose.

… however, I dislike this post. It feels slightly performative. I suppose we’ll see depending on how “on the mark” you are.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

I wanna say something about why Elephas is probably town, too, but that would be a straight-up rulebreak and I play by the rules.

Did the hosts forward you my rolecard like I asked? How kind of them.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Low WiM (possibly a PR thing to fake), very “safe” play, and generally townread enough to not receive a CFD to the face at EoD by accident. I think these conditions were all fulfilled, which made kat a potential PR.

These are good points. And I do agree that, from the perspective of a Mafia member, it is in their best interest to find and kill JOATs early, and almost always higher priority than killing people who have correct reads.

This does not mean that I no longer stand by my earlier vote on you. But I will admit that a large portion of the reasoning behind my vote was for your reaction, rather than the strict belief that you are a wolf because of a dead player’s ability to read you, and I very much like your recent posts.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

There is no way a wolf enters the thread, sees the JOAT cover idea criticized by people who are probably villagers, then… performs JOAT cover as if no negative sentiment has ever existed. Openly breaking a notion established by the village for absolutely no reason isn’t something most wolves would ever do.

Which, to me, implies that Io is just town who is doing their own thing and doesn’t care.

I disagree with this conclusion for the soul reason being that I was the player who was against JOAT cover . It was not large majority of players who expressed negative feelings towards it, it was me and Wiisp, if I am remembering correctly.
Of course this player will ignore my wishes for no JOAT cover this early, if they are intent on tunneling me, for whatever reason.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Still thinking Mole is scum. His play has been a combination of fluffposts, shitposts, asking questions, and occasionally providing random reads.

The only thing keeping me from jumping onto this train is that it almost looks Too-Wolfy-To-Be-A-Wolf

However, this line of thought may be clouding my judgement. It is more likely that he is just a wolf.
I am absolutely fine with placing my vote here, though.

I agree with a majority of the points you brought up in this post. I don’t feel the need to quote them all, but can if asked.

@Elephas

I think I need to look at Vulgard from a different angle. I keep going back and forth on this player. I cannot tell if I’m being pocketed, if I’m being paranoid, or if I’m genuinely just… bad at making decisions.

I do think it may be in our best interest to resolve the Day 1 wagons, as Mole has not done anything that screams “town,” and the only thing truly going for him is that its possible gorta TMI’d both wagons as T/T? But does that mean we should resolve gorta first…?
Hm. I don’t know.
I would be fine with an Io lynch today if not for their JOAT shenanigans. How coincidental.

My brain is not functioning properly at the moment. I will likely do a full re-read of the past few hours in a short while, as I don’t think I actually absorbed any information.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Never Yeet:

Elephas, CatLover, Wisp.

I would like your reasons behind these.

While I enjoy being in a “never yeet” group, I’m unsure why I am there from your perspective. If you already explained, please point me to it.

@Flameo

Not really, just checking in before work, which kind of starts now. I have more Vulgard points that I’ll get to once I’m back. Will be here before end of day.

It’s somewhat disheartening that few players are willing to work with me and actively build towards consensus vote. Mafia are 3 vote strong here, so casting vanity votes is not good enough. Town has to work as a team. I know I’m stubborn on my own reads, but I’m really trying at least… to bridge differences as much as I know how

@Elephas

I look forward to it.

I still have my doubts on Vulgard, but I think its more of paranoia than actual scumreading.

I will absolutely be re-reading quite a lot before I come back into the thread tomorrow (too tired as of now). I do not want wolves to have control at the end of this day, so we need to establish a consensus wagon and counterwagon.

@Elephas

@Vulgard

Do they come across as the type of player who would openwolf as scum, when the thread is already very much against them?

Sadly yes.

However, I don’t think they should be our focus right now. Their slot will resolve itself one way or another.

Giving them too much attention just gives wolves more information, and is also a waste of time, as they are not the lynch today.

@Elephas

Also, Vulgard feels like a genuinely low-WiM villager.
Their thoughts are things that I would see myself saying, even though I missed a few of the posts they quoted.
They are constantly re-evaluting, and I have seen nothing that looks like pushing agenda.

I do not think Vulgard should be in the lynch pool today.
If they live until LYLO and/or we keep flipping villagers in PoE, take a second look

I have determined that my hesitation on the slot is paranoia over a genuine scumread.

@Elephas

My current towncore is:
Elephas, Flameo, Vulgard (Yes, I believe Flameo/Vulgard is Town/Town), Wiisp(?) [Need to re-read]

My PoE is:
Gorta, SirDerpsAlot, Io, Sulit, Mole

Centuries and CatLover are townleans.
Wazza I forgot existed.
Someone else exists and I cannot remember who.

---

And most importantly:

@Elephas

In the instance I die, pay attention to this post

Vulgard is a villager. They are providing content that comes straight out of my brain at almost the speed of light.

Listen to Vulgard. He may be wrong at some points, but he is leading town in the right direction and has the mindset needed to win this game.

Do not pass my death off as “Elephas was killed so we would listen to Vulgard.” Do not lose this game because of deepwolf paranoia.

If Vulgard lives to LYLO or we keep mislynching villagers, you are free to re-assess.

If wanted, I can provide a full wallpost on every quote I have said regarding Vulgard - to show my thought process.

It will not be riddled with confirmation bias as it will simply be quotes for you to draw conclusions on yourself.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[Moleland]

But I’m reading them as bad faith pushes on townreads. I don’t think that’s preflipping.

Pushing vulgard as being as scumbud. Sure, that coukd be preflipping.

[CatLover]

You never said why you thought the pushes or posts were in bad faith, though! You just said they were pushing townreads. In what way did they do it that was in bad faith?!

[Leafia]

@Vulgard

Because it’s pointless if you’re a villager, and it only serves to keep people convinced you’re Genuine and Town.

It isn’t pointless at all coming from a villager because even a villager wants people to believe that they’re a villager.

[Moleland]

ScumLeafia is very Lamist, but it is tier one lamist - not the tier 2 LAMIST you’re pointing out

[Flameo]

@Leafia

Vulgard is a strong townread of mine. I’m pretty sure that he’s town at this point.

@Leafia

It hasn’t changed that much as they’ve always been a townread for me. Although if they’reealive tomorrow and weren’t saved by a JOAT, their slot needs to be scrutinized further. I honestly yuh thought that either him or me was he going to be the N1 kill, him because he’s a strong player that I think is fairly obviously town, as and me out of paranoia and how this is the first time in three town games that I lived past N1.

@Leafia

I don’t think you’ve read everything that has gone on today. Vulgard is not town here. I’m convinced of that now. I personally feel that Mole v Vulgard has a high chance of being scum v scum too.

Okay…

[Elephas]

@CatLover

I… I still think he lacks conviction in all honesty! Originally, his Wiisp push looked okay , but under the surface, a lot of it looks like he’s just throwing things at a wall and sees what sticks!

He spends a lot of posts calling Wiisp an “obvious wolf”, but is still just entirely pre-flipping.

Agreed.

@Leafia

I have a hard time believing that T!Vulgard could possibly see what I said as LAMIST. I don’t honestly know if I would have said what I said as a wolf but basically admitting that you could be understandably read as either alignment isn’t LAMIST in the slightest.

@Leafia

I don’t think you’ve read everything that has gone on today. Vulgard is not town here. I’m convinced of that now. I personally feel that Mole v Vulgard has a high chance of being scum v scum too.

@Leafia

Ask yourself this though. How is basically admitting that saying that I could theoretically be either alignment a LAMIST statement? I was just being honest with that. Honesty isn’t being LAMIST.

Do you understand the meaning of LAMIST?
What you did falls into that category perfectly.
It does not mean it comes from a wolf. It simply means you are pointing out your own towniness.
Honesty and LAMIST are not mutually exclusive.

You are being overly-defensive here and bordering on OMGUS. Please try to take a look from his perspective.

[Flameo]

Yes, this ignores some of whatever the argument is here, but the flip is just so 180…

[Moleland]

Let’s look at lo - they are discrediting their reads based on playstyle. I don’t think that’s tiwn motivated at all.