Why do we have "Special" and "Wildcard" types?

#1

The current Special classes in the game are;

King
Mastermind
Cult Leader

According to the ToL Wiki, “Some classes are one of a kind, such as the King or Mastermind, that doesn’t fill in on any other type.”

This feels off to me. The King absolutely fits in with being a Social type class. He manipulates voting (the social Psychic also has an ability relating to voting) and must communicate via whispering to identify his allies.

The Mastermind can also be called a Social class. He’s literally adding a member to his small society, changing the dynamic of the scum team and adding a new person to night chat. Certainly Social enough.

Cult Leader is the same deal, except he can also be considered a Killer class. His identity is certainly skewed, and is probably the only true candidate for a Special type since he is a hybrid.

The current Wildcard classes in the game are;

Fool
Scorned

According to the ToL Wiki, “Wildcard classes are self-interested subjects who only supports themselves.”

An interesting note is that the Mercenary is NOT considered a Wildcard, and is actually a Support class. This feels off because they don’t care about " supporting" either faction winning over the other - they just need their target to stay alive. While seemingly vested in a common goal, they truly only care about their own goal. Merc is certainly self-interested, and that is why Merc claims get hanged so often. The Support type feels right, but by its own goal and win condition, it certainly should be a wildcard, yet it is not.

The Fool should be considered a Social class not only because of his Trollbox (RIP, but it will return) but because he HAS to talk in order to progress his goal of getting hanged. Quiet players are typically targeted by Scum because they tend to be important roles trying to lay low. I’m not saying quiet Fools don’t get hanged, but it is much more rare. Clever trollboxes can create chaos and incite a hanging.

The Scorned, again, can be thought of as a Social class because without accusing his targets of anything, he cannot easily achieve his goal. His night abilities are odd. I can’t necessarily call them social abilities. But the Scorned usually must interact with players and his target directly in order to win.

So what about Special and Wildcards types?

Remove them from the game. Replace each Special and Wildcard class with Social type (maybe give the Cult Leader killer instead).

Why?

They’re inconsistent and superfluous. Removing them opens up more future design space for abilities that involve player’s class type. Admittedly, changing class types doesn’t impact the game very much right now because the Princess and Invoker are currently the only classes in the game that involves discovering a player’s class type. However, there are may be other classes in the future which can take advantage of the fact the scum faction leaders always show up as Special, and Fools and Scorned’s always show up as Wildcard (Maid, anyone?)

We might as well change “Special” to “definitely scum” and “Wildcard” to “definitely neutral”.

1 Like
#2

They support their target :thinking:

1 Like
#3

I always considered “Special” to be the class type a Leader would have, King, MM and CL all fit that category, I’d argue Prince does too and I asked for Prince to be made Special before, but it never happened ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Also, and this is a personal opinion more than anything else, but those classes being Social would be really weird

I see your point for Scorned and Fool though

#4

Totally agree with this.

#5

I’m down, should be better for evading class-type determining investigatives as well

#6

All two of them, one of which can’t find Special classes

#7

@maid, which should be added imo

#8

That may be so but it isn’t in the game yet and so should not affect the game’s balance and whatever

#9

But the suggestion still makes sense without it

#10

I agree with you; special and wildcard can just be fit into either just one (MM, cult leader, scorned, fool, and king) or have them all go there separate ways.

I do not think, however that prince should be special (I think we need to obliterate special). Even if we don’t get rid of special, the prince is clearly a killing type.

I know some say “but his jailing is offensive, and conversing with targets is social”; but the cult leader being killing is more of a stretch then the prince being killing.

#11

Hmm I have to agree that some classifications are off… while others are not.
1.Scorned.

This ain’t Wildcard, because it is interested in others very much(framing them et al)
Social does not fit for their Framing ability, which isn’t anything minor to this class…
it is disruptive… yet it fits their goal. Disruptive is right… his night abilities are not odd at ALL. They are Disruptive… or to use another word for that, offensive. Scorned is Neutral Offensive

2.Prince

It is a conglomerate of powerful social, Offensive and killing possibilities.
While killing is the threat, there is more to it… as BD you can absolutely trust them because they cannot get converted. And even without killing(after a miskill) it remains a powerful offensive.
The only correct description to this class is “Blue Dragon Special”, indeed.

3.Fool

The Fool wants to be executed at day.
It can frame itself. It is also supposed to be able to trollbox…
but the trollbox is a minor thing anyways, most of the time it didnt make sense to use it!
Most of its abilities are geared towards doing itself something, which is also its goal.
Of course it has to use the normal interaction with others but let me tell you a secret… EVERYONE does.
Everyone has to use their social skills at the day, thats not a distinctive feature.
It is, in my opinion, still Neutral Wildcard

4,The King

Why do we even need to argue about this? It has a social(double vote), killing(decide fate) support(Guards) and now Investigative ability… and it is indeed totally different from any other type. It is still Unknown Special

5.The Mastermind and The Cult Leader
Conversion is something special. It has certain characteristics of Offensive, but it does not disrupt a faction by hindering one of their members to do something but it rather hurts a faction by turning the target into a traitor!(and that aint optional!)
And the killing ability of the Cult Leader is meant to be an emergency application, not something you do at random! Plus killing abilities as part do not have to make them Killing as a whole…
They are in my opinion… Cult/Unseen Special

That’s it.

1 Like
#12

I agree with you for the most part. I would however like to point out that both of the fools night abilitys are ones that have previously been shown to be characteristic of Offensive classes (occupation and framing). The troll box is as you said, not a very core part of the role so it isn’t enough to change the class type entirely. Self framing and occupying however, ARE core to the fools moveset. In conclusion the Fool is Neutral Offensive.

#13

If you take out Special alignment then Princess journals will be worthless when there is a cult game. :C

#14

why?

#15

Hmm I can’t agree with you on self framing
Self framing is definitely wildcard-y, because it can’t target anyone else, it’s supposed to get the fool executed, and investigators or fake investigators are not being extremely sus if they accuse a Fool(because everyone knows that the Fool can trick them)
Occupation is of course offensive in nature. And yes part of it could be considered Offensive. The goal is however heavily wildcard-y. While Scorned usually uses Framing to get someone else hanged, fool uses it to protect itself from being princekilled… and it is a major ability… right… or not?
Hmm that’s the golden question. Well, let’s say it is played like one. Fool means in the current meta occupying. However I am beginning to doubt this is a good idea. Fools who claim(even in Prison) butler rarely win. That claim is either being believed or being not believed in which case it normally leads to “Probably fool. Prince execute at night/Knight CS this/Hunter wolf this”. Unexplained occupations are even more suspect and lead to a fool suspicion as well. Hmmm… What’s true is that the Fool could get into Neutral Offensive. Possibly. But yeah the Fool is a special? kind of class anyways: Two of their(supposed) abilities are not helping very much and can be straíght out detrimetal easily(box, occupy)
the next one is an “I win” button if it works, at least usually… and the passive abilities are not really helping either… quite the opposite: they are harmful. Occupy immunity means being called out for that and that ain’t cool. Prince? Yeah no. Hunter? Yeah no. Most occupy immune evils are well, the Fool or the Possessor… and again Prince if alive will take care of them.(and it cant be butler if you dont claim this on stand anyways) And it doesnt help you greatly either. And the Poor Fellow is the reason why no BD wants to hang fool soo… ya.

#16

What does the fool do?

prevent others from voting.

that sounds very offensive to me. On top of his occupying players, fool is neutral offensive.

#17

Giving false info to investigators is an offensive ability as shown by the old illusionist and the Herbalist.

#18

Fool stops players from voting for 2 days, makes players seem to have said other things, and can occupy. Very offensive sounding to me…

#19

hmm yeah but they gave false info about someone else…
Anyways, we could remove Wildcard, and put Fool into Offensive or Special…but removing special… nope… not a good idea.

#20

Hmm the first one is well… lets just say its a hindrance for the fool itself. It doesn’t help the fool at all, quite the opposite!
But yeah, you can put it into offensive as well I guess… which would eliminate Wildcard as a category…
and it wouldnt even disrupt the Princess- the result would be the same, just like with the Scorned…