Why is everything Occupy immune?

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

You can easily understand why some classes are immune to occupation. For example it would be chaos to resolve what would happen if a Butler occupied a Butler, who’s would go first? Others are for balance, like blocking the King would be too powerful. But some are immune for little reason.

For example, Hunter does not need immunity. If you occupy it, it should just not use bear or wolf. If drunk debauches it while on wolf, they would be immune to the attack. MM can also survive being not immune. It just fails its convert/probe. Blocking a Prince should be fair game to stop executes. Some classes might need target changing to function as an occupy, else Prince executes someone random since Invoker controls him, and it would make no sense to bear someone else. But it feels like a a lot of roles are immune, making it harder to play Butler/Drunk/Alcoholic/Servant.

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#2

Read this sentence again and think about what the wolf does.

#3

Yeah, I see the fallacy there. But you should just be able to detect it without harm, just like finding assassins and such.

#4

I can think of 2 good reasons for making Hunter OCC immune:

1: So that the poacher (who falls under your first catagory as an occupier) won’t be outed by his Immunity.

2: Claimspace for Occ immune NK’S (they fall under the balence catagory)

Prince: TBH I think he’s OCC immune to make Butlers and such not out OCC immunes and because they think Evils occupying the prince should NOT be fair game

Mastermind: Balence. They didn’t want him being locked down and unable to convert. The CL cannot be locked down as easily because he can get himself killed and replaced to fix that.

I think that covers it just about.

#5

2: Claimspace for Occ immune NK’S (they fall under the balence catagory)

I still don’t understand why occupying roles get a message when they try to occupy someone immune to their abilities. It effectively turns them into powerful investigatives and causes huge amounts of trouble because there’s so few roles you can claim that are occupy-immune.

Why not just remove occupy immunity from a few evils (so Butlers have something to do without their investigative powers), but also remove the feedback when you occupy someone who is immune?

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#6

Yes, and no. I would agree it should be able to be stopped. However, the idea is that the Prince is meant to be the most powerful BD rather than the King, so nothing should be able to stop it.

#7

If you remove this feedback, you might just try to occupy an immune player the first 4 nights. Having zero impact is not fun to play as. Also if there is for example no deaths n1 if you have a succesful occupation, you can guess you have just wined the assassin for instance. If there are, you can change your target accordingly. Not getting this message would severely depower current offensive classes and skew the butler/drunk dynamic, since the drunk still gets an attacked but immune message at least.

The distribution between occupy immune and non occupy immune classes is such that you can hardly call them true investigatives, if you compare it to a princess flirt, sheriff investigate, observer follow/peek. They also can and have been fooled by the addition of the CW’s magic barrier. Occupy immune evils also get a message saying they have been tried to be occupied to change their fakeclaim accordingly.

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#8

I mean, of course you wouldn’t just keep occupying the same person over and over and over again unless you have a reason to think it’s doing something (eg. no kills.)

#9

I 100% agree. Get rid of the info saying your target could not be occupied and reduce the number of occ immune targets to make Butler an actual roleblocking support instead of a psuedo-invest.

#10

Agreed. Occupy and redirection immunity should not be the same thing. It makes sense that drunk is immune to occupation, but it doesn’t make sense that they are immune to redirection. And mastermind needs occupation immunity, there are too many unconvertable classes as is(1-4 neutrals + prince + king + court wizards). It would be even harder if they could be occupied.

No, this would result in a butler occupying the same occupation immune player several times. And there’s nothing wrong with it being a pseudo-invest.

#11

Maybe not the Hunter or Mastermind or NK or whatever. But the Butler, Drunk and invoker need redirect immunity because of the weird conflicts that come with Drunk HH being redirected by another drunk or a CW redirecting someone trying to occ him.

#12

Basically while Occ immunity might not have to NECESSARILY imply redirect immunity it does have to be common for occ immunes to be redirect immune

#13

No because I am saying we should have less occupy immune classes so that is less likely to happen. Besides, if you are Butler occupying the same immune class over and over again then maybe you are just not a very good butler :slight_smile: .

And yes, there is something wrong with Butler being a psuedo invest. It is designed as a support class, hence why it is in the support category. Otherwise it steals thunder from the actual invest classes which is not fun for anyone - this is a big reason why King lost allies, because it negated the importance of the actual investigative classes.

#14

Occ immunes that need to be redirect immune:

Sorc - Because of SoD and how it interacts with visits
Butler
Drunk
invoker - See above
Prince - Duh. He isn’t supposed to kill anyone other than his prisoner
Fool - He only does self target. It doesn’t really matter I guess but still
Scorned - She isn’t supposed to be able to frame non-targets.

Occ immunes that DONT need to be redirect immune:

Mastermind - We already saw how this goes when CW bypassed occ immunity. It went fine
Hunter - His self target ability can’t be redirected anyway (not a visit) and wolf has to particular reason to be immune to it
Possessor - He doesn’t really care THAT much who he uses puppet strings on. The first target would be changed by a drunk so he would not be able to find him that way. Possess might have to be an exception however because of how dependent he is on it sometimes.

Anyone I forgot to mention is fine as is or is a converted version.

#15

I think it’s fair for NKs to be occ immune. They have it hard enough as is. Invoker has occupy, so falls under Drunk/Butler category.

Some target changes should work as occupies instead I think, so Prince and Scorned don’t kill/frame invalid target. For Hunter, I think immunity is fine, but Drunk should have some clause that Hunter won’t kill him.

Mastermind should be blockable, as Cult Leader is, and Cult Leader has more power.

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#16

Knight is also a pseudo-invest since it can determine night immunes and BD.

That’s not why king lost allies. King lost allies because it was on an automatically confirmed and guaranteed class. It also resulted in a “leads or get exed D4” meta, which forced evil kings to bus their own members.

Just make it so it can’t work on invalid targets. Evils should have a way to block the prince’s executions.

They should be. Framed just needs a rework, it should be able to target anyone and select the class they appear as.

NKs should be occupation and redirection immune, they have a hard enough time as is.

#17

Indeed he is. And he’s better for it. I like that most classes are pseudo invests

King lost allies for more than one reason. You are both right.

Happy hour. The same class that we are talking about already has it.

Well until it is scorned should be redirect immune

But reaper is doing just fine. And my list is of classes that NEED occ immunity. Not just ones where it could work.

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