Pretender Neutral Special False Identity (Passive) - Immune to death once, this passive is removed upon class changing. Stolen Actions (Passive) - You’ll gain the amount of limited use abilites they had left. Tailor (Night) - If that target is killed during the night you’ll become that class - Infinite. Double Dress (Night) - Select two targets, if one is killed you’ll become that class, if both are killed you’ll become the first one you select. - 2 uses
Goal: Become a new class and complete their objectives.
Notes (Strange interactions).
Summary
-If possessor jumps, Pretender will not become the class of the jumped.
-Can’t become reaped targets.
-(Debate if you think they should be able to become classes that where jailed).
-Will bypass assassin or second cult member on become the CL/MM when they die.
-Being debbed into a dead king will not become king, Pretender can never become king unless stepping up.
This feels less like a rework and more like a class suggestion, since this has absolutely no similarities to current Pretender. Personally I don’t think an Amnesiac styled class has much room in ToL.
And the ‘pretender to the throne’ class makes more sense than ‘pretending to be this dead guy’, imo.
I suppose this is all down to my opinion. And it seems you disagree, which is fair. But I’ll start from the top, I guess.
This is all assuming that there would be no 'A Pretender remembered they were X notification like in ToS, but most of it holds true to a lesser extent with said warning
Being able to remember unique roles would be pretty bonkers. Your post doesn’t say anything about that not being allowed, so I’ll assume it is. Being able to just have another cultseen member because you guessed when one would die is super powerful, especially if you get a third Mastermind. That’s beyond gamechanging. Snipe the Prince? Another Prince is crazy. Even if you don’t get more exes. And if you can use your abilities on jailed targets (I assume you can’t) then being able to snipe a NK would be downright silly. And getting cultseen would honestly be downright easy.
Maybe I’m just not a fan of change, but a neutral like this has the potential to absolutely change any resemblance of consistency. Even if you get a random BD, most classes are powerful enough to change the course of a game and I don’t think it’d be very fun to play against, frankly.
Essentially, this class could be considered a super protective because if your target dies, you just become them. Protecting the Drunk but they get killed bypassing healing or something? Oh, you’re that Drunk now. The scum faction don’t gain anything from a successful kill in that case. That’s just my two (probably a bit more than two, that was a lot of text) cents, though.
That’s fair, I suppose. I just don’t think that the “neutral whos wincon is to become king” concept is going to be scrapped any time soon. And I don’t really think it should be, either. I heavily dislike Pretender in its current state but the concept is fine. A Pretender to the throne makes a lot of sense in the game.
Why is that? it’s basically the same as healing someone because the original is going to die anyway so cult will still be at the same numbers, bd will, ect. by that logic Alchemist is mega bonkers because they can save CL multiple times, so I find this really invalid.
Another Prince is crazy. Even if you don’t get more exes. And if you can use your abilities on jailed targets (I assume you can’t) then being able to snipe a NK would be downright silly. And getting cultseen would honestly be downright easy,
Not really? you have to be on the, exact night prince dies, which is similar to a protective being on prince.
What consistency will it change?
No because it can only “protect” once. Alchemist can protect multiple people and kill people.
No throne makers are horrible they create a meta where you vote up the throne maker and no one else can be king because “neuts in” pretender is a bad class period wincon being a death immune princess ect.
Alchemist in its current state has quite a lot of potential impact, but rarely does it pan out like that.
Well…
Tailor (Night) - If that target is killed during the night you’ll become that class - Infinite.
Infinite use ability… doesn’t make that very complicated? You could play like a BD slave and suddenly you duplicate the Prince, which is more gamechanging than what any other neutral can do 99% of the time but significantly easier to do.
The power of a neutral class, number of neutrals, and number of cultseen/BD/potentially NKs. In a 16 player game you have the king, 2 starting cultseen, the NK, and then 9 BD/3 Neutrals or 1 BD and 2 Neutrals. Every neutral bar the Sellsword has a wincondition that doesn’t directly favor one faction, and while this one doesn’t either - it also has a “select your wincon” button, and given the BD win significantly more often than any other faction, the optimal strategy would be to find a BD role of choice and be a protective… and duplicating a role is powerful. You’re also moving the Prince from one number to another, and if you’re not outted you’re doing much more than “protecting” once.
Like I said. I dislike Pretender in its current state. But I don’t think it’s bad conceptually. It just needs some tweaking.
Yes, but wouldn’t it be the same for this class? it can latterly only become a class once (which saves someone) while alchemist can heal multiple times, kill people ect, I feel like alchemist would have a bigger effect.
Uh no? any neutral like alch, merc current pretender can play like a bd slave, this is also a big no while yes you can become prince this would make the current prince die which alchemist can heal MULTIPLE times it doesn’t reduce/gain a bd count because you’ll basically be killing a bd or cult or unseen ect. they will become that class so in all effective purpose it’s as effective as a heal so no it’s not 99% more significantly easier to do.
Alchemist, Mercenary and Pretender all favour bd with there day abilities, Scorned and fool favor evils so much more then bd like so much more.
No you could be on neutral classes or cultseen the optiomal play for it is to side the current winning faction and who’s more likely to win. So no.
Not really because you’ll be outed pretty much soon once you become prince unless you don’t jail and fake claim when your upped for not claiming ect, evils could easily tell a pret became a prince. This is effectively a heal, maybe more powerful but in total alchemist can save the prince multiple times I think your argument falls flat because bd doesn’t really gain a member they just have a new one for exchange of a death, same goes for unseen/Cult.
No it needs a overhaul it doesn’t work as a class. Every other neutral can become king it’s not interesting to have a class based around that, it’s not fun to be a pretender it’s not fun to be a king in a pretender game and it’s not fun to be a royal that wants to step but theirs a pretender in game so you can’t pretender fundamentally is a broken class just by their win con this isn’t even considering how horrible Bloot test is, being a Di princess ect.
Overall I see your point but this hardly has the effect you make it out to be.
We don’t need a class that becomes unseen king upon being kinged or like a ss king we shouldn’t be trying to fix what can’t be fixed aka pretender as a class
I think Alchemist can have more effect, but I think this class could have a huge effect more often. I see what you’re saying though. You’re not wrong.
The thing is with all of those classes is that playing like a BD slave isn’t optimal (except maybe for Merc). Alch wants the game to end fast (so they really shouldn’t be healing BD), Pretender wants the scum to not kill them while also getting king, and Merc… wants to occupy a lot of people. Which generally means extending the game, which can favor evils, but usually they occ evils a lot too.
The thing with this proposed class would be that, since BD die the most AND have the highest overall winrate, it’d be optimal to side BD. It’s easiest and safest. If Prince died N1/N2, you could make a case for siding cultseen being optimal. However, you have to know who one is, and then know when they die. And usually with no Prince, cultseen die at night significantly less.
Fool can absolutely crush Possessor and CL. But generally, Fool favors scum more than BD. Scorned can go either way though. If the Scorned is outted, I’d say they’re 50/50 with where they lean.
People play Alchemist like a BD neut, but I’m still of the opinion that optimal Alchemist play is anti-BD, but can be pro-whoever-is-winning. Pretender is kind of weird. Pretender King is very anti-BD most of the time, but Pretender is super pro-BD. But that’s a different issue altogether imo.
Shrug. You might be right. I think this proposed Pretender would still be a super-support, but I can’t argue against Alch being able to save the Prince multiple times. (I can, however, argue that that’s bad play… which I already did above )
Trust me, I hate current Pretender quite a lot. I think it needs a major rework. But I do think the concept can work. And if not, I’ll concede to being wrong there.
Overall, this discussion has made me grow to the idea a little more, honestly. I still think being able to copy a unique class is bad, but other than that it’s growing on me.
Alright that’s good I somewhat agree but I feel like alchemist does consistently help bd a lot with saves.
Alchemist wants scum out as soon as possible for the quickest win sam-ish with pret I feel like my argument still stands
Not to burst your bubble but the point was the optimal play would be to wait to see who’s likely to win yes bd win more often, this is why I wanted this class to target jailed players ect. Maybe even execution targets but that might be overkill. But bd only win like 45% of the time cult and unseen have a pretty high win ratio and if you think one sides going to lose it’s always optiomally best to side with the other side as any neutral.
Maybe we could change it to not be able to copy unique-Bd classes, I think it becoming classes like Sellsword/Assassin would be good if it wasn’t able to remeber evil unique classes it would be mega bd sided. as the only real evils that aren’t unique is Fool(This is even debatable), Non-CL cult and third unseen members
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