A few suggested changes after patch 1.08 (CW mainly)

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

First of all: what a great game! So much fun and patch 1.08 for the most part adds to that.

Still, some classes feel a bit lacklustre even after the changes:

Neutrals / Investigative BD classes / Cult / Unseen
No changes necessary, they all have interesting goals and ways to interact to reach those goals.

Court Wizard
The new ability makes the Court Wizard no more fun at all. So my suggestion is: remove it and give him a daytime ability instead. Which would be Eavesdrop. But for the sake of lore, it could be renamed to: Crystal Ball.

It would be exactly like Eavesdrop except with the addition: You cannot use this ability during the first 3 days.
It would have 2 uses, just like the Apostle already has. (rename the ability on the Apostle as well, to keep it more simple)

Add this daytime ability to the Sage as well. The ā€˜not being able to use on the first 3 daysā€™, should apply to the Sage and Apostle as well.

King (balance change)
During the first 3 nights only, the first neutral will appear as Blue Dragon to the Kingā€™s Allies ability. (all 3 versions)
A nerf needed to help neutral classes and also may incentivize some later uses of the Allies ability.

Knight
Add daytime ability (2 uses)
Retribution: Your Sacrifice ability may target yourself next night.

Death Knight
Should not be allowed to vote. (Got this suggestion from @orangeandblack5)
(in the late game that extra BD vote is really harsh for Cult/Unseen)

Psychic
Private Matter seems a bit silly for the Psychic. Both talking to the dead (with the Link Minds added to that) and the special message offer interesting gameplay. Private Matter seems a bit overkill for this class. Suggestion: remove and return it to Noble. (remove it from illusionist as well)

Noble
Remove the Noble Twin ability. (Political pressure is more fun anyways)
Add the daytime ability: Private Matter. With 2 uses.
(Change Aristocrat accordingly)

Drunk
Drunk is weird after the patch. It has become some sort of clone of the Court Wizard. The Court Wizard change (remove barrier that targeted 2 players) was intended to make conversions a bit easier for Unseen/Cult, but now Drunk gets the same role.

Giving the drunk a bit more diverse role than the Court Wizard, and a bit more feeling of control I would suggest the following:
Remove occupy immunity at night.
Add the daytime ability: Stupor: 2 uses. You become conversion and occupy immune the next night.
Change Debauchery back to the old form. (target a player that will target you instead of the original target). You will not have immunity, unless you used stupor and you were targeted by a conversion or occupy action.

1 Like
#2

The most anoying thing about the new drunk is when youā€™re trying to defende somone from conversion, and force them to attack/ convert you. Right after that night you will just get converted yourself

#3

Hmmmm.

Iā€™d support the Psychic change I guess, but only because it probably needs a nerf right now. Iā€™d rather just remove Private Matters entirely or give it to a whisper-focused Social class instead. Butler really doesnā€™t need it.

Also, you make an interesting point surrounding the CW and Drunk. While I strongly dislike the idea of having the class read whispers, especially a non-Social class, I will say that these two are indeed quite similar now and I hadnā€™t considered that for some reason. Both can protect their target or roleblock them, the details are just different. I will give this some thought in the coming days.

#4

Thank you for your replies.

Eran_Shmuel
Definitely got a good point there. Another reason to convert back to the old mechanics.

OrangeandBlack5
First of all Iā€™d like to strongly advocate to get both the hiding and spying on whispers in the game.
Not to make any side stronger, but to bring a very unique and fun dimension to the game on top of ā€˜attack thisā€™ / ā€˜defend thatā€™ mechanics. You can always balance the game in total by restricting the amounts of uses of several abilities.

I see you have played Town of Salem before, so you obviously are an experienced player, can you tell me why you want to get certain types of abilities to certain types of classes? In general, I agree that well-defined classes are way more fun than ā€˜everybody can do everythingā€™, but I donā€™t really feel the latter is the case here anyway. The classes are all well defined in my opinion. (except, like stated before, the Drunk and Court Wizard)

I really like the ā€˜spy on whispersā€™ for the Court Wizard, because it adds possibilities to this class aside from just pressing a number to protect. As far as I can tell, it is one of the least liked classes right now. And recharge is very boring.
Also the trade off between supporting (Ice Ward) and gathering intelligence in a non-set way (like the Sheriff or Princess) makes it so that
a) the Court Wizard becomes MUCH more enjoyable and
b) gives less games in which Unseen/Cult are fā€¦ed because they are blocked from converting too much.

Perhaps Butler doesnā€™t really need the ability Private Matter, but that was the point. Giving it to a class that is less OP with it. Like the Psychic currently is. I think another strong option for Private Matter is the class were is once was: The Noble. His two daytime abilities donā€™t work well together anyways (in a numbers game at least) , so replacing Noble Twin with 2 uses of Private Mater would be more than fine too. Three vote-related abilities is more than enough for the Noble, Private Matter would give them a little taste of real intrigue as well.

#5

Good point about the Drunk and CW being essentially the same. Iā€™d argue that Drunk is a more powerful CW, not the other way around only because you can protect a target indefinitely until you are targeted by a kill directly at night.

My idea for new CW:

Day Ability 1 - Silence: Prevent your target from speaking tonight (??? uses).

Night Ability 1 - Magical Barrier: Choose two people to protect from poisoning or bleeding the following day. You will be notified of any poison or bleed attempts on your targets (unlimited uses.)

Night Ability 2 - Recharge: Give your target an extra use of their limited use abilities (1 use).

#6

I like the recharge ability. IW ability is awful though. You donā€™t wanna use it on anybody early game because then you canā€™t protect them late game! I say just give CW the ability to IW anybody any amount of times, but give it 3 charges. And if he runs out, he can use recharge on himself. That way late game, he can still IW his allies, but have to recharge it every other turn.

#7

Ice Ward is a great skill that should not be taken away imo

@Ulkesh you might think that giving people less uses of an ability is making it weaker, but with reading otherwise hidden chats that is not the case. Once a hidden chat has the potential to be compromised, it is never worth using unless youā€™re already screwed.

#8

Ice Ward is a good skill indeed. Definitely should stay. Recharge is a very clunky skill, requires a lot of info or luck to actually do something. And quite boring.

@orangeandblack5

I do not agree with you at all that it is not worth anymore for cult/unseen to use whispers if 3 uses of ā€˜spyingā€™ are given to the CW. This for 2 reasons:

  1. The chances of being found out are very small to begin with. A CW only has 3 uses and must declare the night before which player to target. So he must get 1 of the 2 players right on the exact night before a crucial message is sent. And he might not even dare to use it, because he feels he has to ward someone. (like an outed Sheriff)
    Before, the Nobles were having a field day, with it being a daytime (so reactive) ability with unlimited uses. But that is not what I suggested. For such a limited chance I would never give up a crucial daytime communication by whisper. Itā€™s like staying inside to avoid the chance of getting hit by a car: What you give up is simply too much for not taking that small risk.

  2. Even if your messages are spied upon, that does not have to mean the end for you as cult/unseen AT ALL. You can even use it to your advantage. It requires a bit of creativity though. Like code agreed upon by night.
    Or, much simpler, just two cult members talking about voting up a BD (letā€™s call him 11), but using whispers as though they are BD. ā€œI really think 11 is cultā€. It doesnā€™t have to be as obvious as: ā€œHe fellow evildoer, letā€™s hang that innocent man.ā€

And that is exactly what I mean with: It adds a fun new dimension. For me chats, secret and in public, are by far the most enjoyable part of the game. And I really do like abilities that interact with chats. (Much more fun than just an investigation check that comes up: He is a cult member)

#9

I updated my initial posts so it better reflects the discussion in this thread. Furthermore, I added a suggestion from another thread.

#10

The problem with these suggested changes is that they make CW an easy HARD clear. Give Mastermind and original Assassin some room to breathe. Else you get a massclaim and the unprovable classes are removed(and the most sus people are getting Happy Hourā€™d/jailed until Day 4) And with MM gone Unseen has massive problems.

1 Like
#11

@Unknown
You make a good point. For Cult, The Apostle can false claim, but this would put Unseen in a bad spot indeed.

(edited) I made it so that Court Wizard (and Sage and Apostle) cannot use it the first 3 days. Which makes a claim no longer 100%, since he could have been converted N1 or N2. (Note that his converted class, the Sage, gets 2 uses as daytime ability)

#12

Only problem I see with this is the new Meta would mean king doesnt invest till n4. That screws the good king. Ive found a good 40-50% of games resolve within 5 - 7 days. That only gives a good king 2 days really to find any evil.

#13

King should still invest during the first 3 nights, at the very least once. His main task is to find Cult/Unseen.

I chose 3 because it is the same as other restrictions (hanging king, prince exe, MM as BD, my suggestion for Eavesdrop/Crystal Ball). This would make it easier to remember.

I think it is really balanced for Cult games, but unfortunately less so for Unseen games when I come to think of it. (Because of the MM showing up as BD too the first 3 nights)

What would say if it were: On the first 3 nights, there is a 50% chance of neutrals showing up as BD? (to all 3 kings)

I keep updating the initial post based on the discussion in this thread, and discussions in other threads (like the Knight change).

#14

No explicit RNG past class assignments if you can avoid it.

#15

@NuclearBurrito
Fair enough.

During the first 3 nights only, the first neutral will appear as Blue Dragon to the Kingā€™s Allies ability. (all 3 versions)

#16

Above suggestion would probably work, but would make the rules a bit much for an ability.

So another suggestion: A new unique neutral class.

The Druid
(only spawns as 3rd or 4th neutral instead of a Fool)

Win condition: At least 2 neutrals survive the game.
(this may include yourself and/or a neutral king)

Daytime abilities:
Natureā€™s Guise: Unless framed, all neutrals will show as Blue Dragon next night to investigative checks. (2 uses)
Leeches: Cure any poison if the target is neutral. Otherwise, the target will bleed out after 2 nights instead. (2 uses)
(make no distinction in the display message between the Bleeding from a Cult Leader or Druid)

Night-time abilities:
Entangle: Occupy the target (2 uses)
Shapeshift: This night, you become immune to conversion, occupy and death. Anyone visiting you will bleed out after 1 night. (2 uses)

#17

terrible if you are third neutral and the other 2 are fools

#18

Edited the spawn condition so that there can be max 1 Fool in a game with a Druid.

#19

I dont think Death Knight should be changed., unless the buff BD in other way.

#20

CW certainly needsā€¦ something.

Itā€™s not much fun to play. Of course it never really was, even when it was really powerful.
Even something like feedback that you did something would be nice.

Ice Ward someone, it says you prevented someone from visiting them. Not who, but at least you know youā€™re doing something.