A Theoretical way to improve Casual and implement Ranked

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Many people may resist some of those changes, but this post is ment to be direct and improved upon. If you got any suggestions please write them down below :wink:

Casual Improvements
This may sound like “Throne of Lies is going to become like Town of Salem!” But hear me out. There will be 2 casual gamemodes: Informed and Uninformed (Thanks @Simon for the suggestion!). I want to implement a role list for the Informed as that will be the casual game mode with the role list, and it will have the following classes:
1 Prince
2 Investigative Classes
2 Social Classes
3 Support Classes
1 Offensive Class
2 Random Blue Dragon (To spice it up)
1 Master Mind
1 Assassin
1 King
2 Neutrals (To spice it up)

This role is random enough that you cant really guarantee some role unless they confirm themselves, while not too much easier then Ranked. By having a role list, we give players a chance to learn and master roles, while making it fairly balanced in terms of difficulty.

As for the Uninformed gamemode, it will be as it is right now: A casual gamemode with no role list. This will probably be for the Nostalgic or people improving their skill.

Ranked Implementation
Now for this, we will leave the role list behind to make this gamemode as Casual is right now, all any. We will still have a guaranteed Prince however, as the Prince is one of the if not the strongest Blue Dragon classes in the game. Players will have 10 placement matches to get their rank. Here’s what I think the Ranked scoring system should be:
5 for a BD win
7 for an Unseen win
8 for a Cult win
9 for a King win
10 for a neutral win
2 for a loss (Only in placements, I recommend a - 5)
0 for a leave. (Only in placements, I recommend a - 10 for leave) . Here’s my reasoning behind this point system. Blue Dragon wins most of the time, so they get a low score. Evils are much harder to win, and it’s very difficult to win as Cult, so Cult gains 3 more points for winning, however Unseen only get 2 extra points. I see King die a lot in game, so a King win (King spawn win) will be 9 points. Lastly, neutrals are very hard to win at as well, some more then others. However, they deserve the win either way, giving them 5 more points as they are technically not a faction and mostly work on their own.

Why such low points
This has to do more with psychology then balancing. You are more likely to think that higher numbers are a lot better then smaller numbers. This is mostly correct, but when it comes to things like HP or ELO, people can overestimate themselves and end up losing due to their over confidence. This game is a fair game, and it should be that for all aspects of the game, ecen psychology wise. Now to the ranks!

Ranked Ranks
0 ELO - Unranked (For obvious reasons)
1 ELO - Beggar
25 ELO - Peasant
50 ELO - Thief
75 ELO - Blacksmith
100 ELO - Overseer (Highest possible rank after Ranked placements)
125 ELO - Priest
150 ELO - Merchant
175 ELO - Squire
200 ELO - Knight
225 ELO - Spellcaster
250 ELO - Monk
275 ELO - Land Lord
300 ELO - King Advisor
325 ELO - Military General
350 ELO - Prince
375 ELO - King
400 ELO - Living Legend.

This may seem like a grind, but remember you only need 5 BD minimum to rank up. This will take time for people to rank up to Living Legend, but so does every new Ranked System. (60 consecutive BD wins to get to Living Legend by the way)

#2

The problem is, based on my experience, you get a result which doesn’t reflect how well you play

#3

About what part of the suggestion exactly? :confused:

#4

Honestly just thinking about your comment for a bit, all competitive games I’ve played have some form of ELO. Throne of Lies is a team game like Town of Salem, so winning with your faction is the most important. Neutral wins on the other hand are alot harder then Unseen wins for example, as you have to usually work alone, and it rewards you drastically for winning as a neutral.

#5

True. But in tos, normally you play your faction the whole game. Any ranking system that only counts results is inherently flawed

3 Likes
#6

The real thing is that in a hugely team-focused game like this it’s actually impossible to make a good ELO system, as it is perfectly usual to be carried, and there’s no way to systematically reveiw every game to determine who did best, and mathematically focused systems to indicate ‘kills’ wouldn’t work either.

So ELO is actually a fundamentally flawed system for this game IMO.

3 Likes
#7

My problem is not the Elo, that’s all fine.

NO ROLE LIST FOR CASUAL, HOWEVER.

That role list does not limit in any way what classes can show up, so why have it? Not only that, but if you make it more limiting, it just restrains what you can claim.

#8

Again, the only reason I want a role list for casual is to give newer players more time to develop scum reading and master the roles. Casual is supposed to be fun and relaxing, not a chore.

#9

Recommend another scoring system that can work better then ELO?

#10

Ah! But this isn’t tos, because we have convertions. You get more points for winning as evils, so maybe it balances out. You can’t just give converted BDs a BD win, because that’s just unfair even if the Unseen members were converted in the last second.

#11

Also side note: Every game will have a carry, but not every match will have one. We can’t take a situation that is uncommon and build a system around it, because that’s just not realistic.

#12

Exactly like here. By having this sort of randomness, you allow people to claim more then just Princess, Knight or Observer, and you push them to think harder. By providing this role list, you are forced to oay more attention to the graveyard to see who might be lying or not and therefore you can develop scum reading much more easily.

#13

Looking at the results you have and rewards for wins it would suggest that BD is twice as easy to win as it is to win as a neutral .
That cult is harder to win at than bd or unseen …
My experience has been very different to this
I guess that the data is out there in dev land but In games I play evils win at least half if not more .
Fools and scorned often pick up wins .

the whole idea is massively over complicated for no real reason .

1 point for a win , -1 point for a lose .

On average you will have 9 games where you start bd ( 1 in 9 of these you will be prince etc ) , 2 games where you start evil and 3 games where you start neutral and 1 where you are a king ( again 1 in 3 will determine your class )

So trying to balance of an arbitrary guess as to possible success ratios based on class etc is pointless as your random assignment of class will balance your win ratio anyway .

Saying yeah but its easier to win with x y or z so that’s why you won is irrelevant because on average you will be x then z then y as many times as everyone else

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#14

Ranked system should and probably will be added to the game in a later stage, but atm I don’t think its something the devs should focus on.

ToS just made a new ranked system which is pretty good. fyi

#15

how about:
2 types of casual games:
(i dont want to say ‘beginner’ and ‘normal’ because that makes people who should pick ‘beginner’ pick ‘normal’ because they dont want to be called beginners)
Informed:

  • has a role list
  • maybe others

Uninformed:

  • has no role list
  • maybe others
#16

So basically a “ranked practice” and an “all any”. Not a bad idea!

#17

I would have to disagree with this comment. Neutrals are in general very difficult to win as, so they get most points. Remember: This is ranked. The higher your rank, the harder it is to ein as fool and scorned. Cult got the highest points of a faction, getting an 8. Unless the devs can release new data and statistics I wouldn’t be likely changing the scoring system. Lastly, I see many players leave in my game, for example I saw around 6 leaves in a game I played today. Leaving is very annoying and it should br punished heavily. I also don’t see how a rank up for every 25 points is complicated, it’s likr saying the Metric system is complicated because its consistent.

#18

no i meant, one has a defined list of classes/class types that will appear, and the other is still limited by factors such as the 2-nk limit

#19

I mean, I ment that the Undefined will be what Casual is now, and there are only 2 Neutral Killers im the game: Reaper and possessor, (Alch is a support class).

#20

another good thing about uninformed vs. informed is it provides modes for some people who might prefer logical deduction vs. lying and telling lies

1 Like