Abilities that are unusable before D3

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#21

Inq is definitely a hardcounter, and completely unbalanced class. I am a new player to the game, and i have only played as Inq once. i found a MU n1, and i killed them n2, and won the game. WITH NO EXPERIENCE.

classes should require at least a bit of skill, rather than just being able to win easily and before the game has ended (except fool, and other classes like that, which do require skill and remove you from the game upon winning)

However, Inq is not the only hardcounter class.

These are not hardcounters, although i would agree that they do only negatively effect the cl/mm. This is because they prevent a convert. This gives information to the cl/mm along the lines of " i couldn’t convert them. they may be prince, neutral, or have the favour of the king/cw - they are important" They punish the unseen/cult slightly by reducing their numbers, but have no other effect.

Smite however, Instantly kills up to 2 cult, prevents 2 players from being converted, and can permanently handicap the cult, making a bd win all but inevitable. This does more than almost any ability in the game. and it can be used twice. No other abilities can have this much effect on the game - and this makes it especially overpowered compared to it’s counterpart the sheriff - who shares a single ability and has an almost pointless ability (which does little more than confirm the first ability), as well as a day ability that can gain information from unseen visits, leading to possible executions. Note that Scout does not kill the mm if they convert, and that there are defences to being visited (Scorned target, convert immune, a different ability was used, etc…).

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#22

Clear mind and fealty are more soft counters. They prevent conversions, but they don’t really harm the cult/unseen. The old scout didn’t prevent conversions, but it outed converted players so it’s a hardcounter. Smite prevents conversions and kills the CL.

Yes. It was designed to be a hardcounter

#23

So a hardcounter ability is defined as “something which kills an opponent with zero risk”?

That would make Smite the only hardcounter ability in the game. And Inq would still be the only hardcounter class according to what I understand of the “hardcounter ability” definition.

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#24

Don’t mind me

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#25

definition

“hard counter
A strategy that utterly dominates another strategy, leaving no question of the outcome.”

There is nothing a cl can do against a smite. Clear Mind and other immunities do not dominate, but prevent, leaving other options open (like converting different people). Therefore, it is a hardcounter.

yes, this was from Urban Dictionary. I think it is a good definition though.

Butler also hardcounters the King, but there is a risk to it, since they may kill a good king. they also don’t have as much capability at gathering information, balancing them. Since the King is not informed of the poison, i feel it still counts as a hardcounter.

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#26

But the thing king can do is ask for heals from a alch constantly

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#27

There is nothing a cl can do against a smite.

Your definition applies only to strategies. And Cult Leader like you acknowledge can convert someone who isn’t getting smited. Or have a fellow Cult member prevent or redirect the smite.

#28

Immunities are more soft counters than hard counters.

How do you know if they aren’t getting smited though? You aren’t told when the paladin uses smite.

But you don’t always know who the paladin is.

#29

How do you know if they aren’t getting smited though? You aren’t told when the paladin uses smite.

You usually can’t know for sure. But along with luck there is skill involved also.

But you don’t always know who the paladin is.

True, but that doesn’t make Smite an uncounterable ability. Cult Leader can eradicate a Paladin who smites, for instance.

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#30

Calling a class a hard counter means that one class solely counters another single class.

Clear mind? Ability that counters another ability

Smile? Same dead. 1 ability that counters another ability.

Neither of these are countering any classes and even if they did it wouldn’t make CW and Paladins hard counters because that isn’t their only or even their main ability.

#31

Abilities can still be hardcounters without the class being a hardcounter. Paladin soft counters the cult but smite hardcounters the cult leader. And even if that wasn’t true, smite is still overpowered. It prevents a convert and kills the CL. Clear mind is more of a soft counters. It just prevents a convert, it doesn’t cause any harm

#32

Alright, but it’s still overpowered when it does work. It’s omniscient killing(which BD shouldn’t have), prevents a convert, and kills the CL

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#33

Smite being stronger than clear mind is irrelevant in if it is a hardcounter.

And no. Smite is not a hard counter for cult leader for the same reason that the sheriff doesn’t hard counter the assassin.

Spacificaly Cult Leader is not just Convert. Smite does nothing against 3/4 of the CL’s Ability’s and does nothing to the CL directly (smites kill is indirect)

#34

Omnicent killer refers to vig kills. Not indirect kills.

Sorcerer is an omnicent killer for example but Hunter’s Bear isn’t even though it can’t kill BD (Knight would kill himself)

#35

Old Knight was an example of an omnicent killer

#36

Alright, but smite is still overpowered since it prevents a convert and kills the CL. That’s huge, especially since you can’t know when a pally is smiting

But omniscient killing is when attacks can’t kill BD. Why should indirect kills be excluded? Smite can only kill the CL.

#37

Because they don’t have the problem that omnicent kills do (Psudo investigative properties that don’t require anyone to trust you)

Or in otherwords:

Kill - Eliminates Scum or non-scum but does not require trust

Peek - Eliminates Scum but requires trust

Omnicent Kill - Eliminates Scum and doesn’t require trust

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#38

Actually the bear could kill BD because of a possessor :wink:

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#39

Not having a possessor would not change my conclusion.

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#40

Alright, but smite is still overpowered since it prevents a convert and kills the CL. That’s huge, especially since you can’t know when a pally is smiting

Even though I dislike the concept of locking an ability before a certain date purely on principle, I really do believe that the current Smite is perfectly balanced. Since you have two safe nights to get your first convert off safely and then basically three days to figure out who the Paladins are and who may be getting smited. And of course you can eradicate twice in a row or simply do nothing for a night to confuse the Paladins about when you are converting.