Abilities that are unusable before D3

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Personally, I dislike the concept of locking an ability until a certain time period. I think it’s a very clunky solution to balance and gamethrowing problems. I also think evils should be able to target themselves and their allies with all of their abilities.

In some niche cases, a killer can predict he will be swapped with his target and himself. At the moment you’re only counter is to do nothing (if you’re Assassin or Cult Leader) or attack anyway and just hope you’re not swapped (if you’re NK).

This is especially annoying if you’re trying to convert someone and know you will be swapped with yourself. Of course it’s a niche case, but still.

Regarding the main topic, which is abilities like Prince exe, Knight CS, and Smite not being usable until N3. It’s very annoying to jail someone acting like a Fool N1, because now you’ve got a confirmed evil in prison but you have no way to kill him safely for 2 more days.

Knight CS. If three people claim alchemist D1, why shouldn’t he be able to coldsteel the most suspicious of them? Just because it’s D1 doesn’t mean you can’t make a judgment on which is the most suspicious. And it’s very often you find an evil D2 who might be a Fool but the Knight still can’t kill him for another day.

Paladin Smite. I admit that locking Smite until N3 was a VERY good move balance-wise. However I still feel uncomfortable with it and feel there are better solutions. Such as letting Smite be used any night but not usable again if you miss with it.

#2

It’s essentially to prevent throwing or trolling in circumstances such as a player who gets a Knight or Butler and yolo CS/Poisons so they can suicide and get out of the game.

I dislike it, but it’s a necessary evil otherwise.

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#3

is the banning system not good enough to handle that or something?

#4

The problem is that yolo CS/Poison is in the grey area here. It’s not exactly throwing, but it’s an extremely frustrating experience to be yolo CS’d n1 either way.

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#5

not any more frustrating than getting killed N1 as sellsword

#6

https://i.imgur.com/HmVDc4i.gif

Anyway, it’s clear that you grasp the balance/gamethrowing prevention aspects of having these limits in place. If so, why not suggest something to replace the limits then? Simply acknowledging a more-or-less necessary evil isn’t going to make it change on its own, imo.

Prevention is more effective than punishment, despite the fact that it’s slightly annoying.

I’m not sure why you chose to put this before your main topic and not after, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Either way, same thing as the main topic: yes, this does happen, so what would you suggest to fix it?

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#7

What about giving evils a “consent to be targeted by their teammates” option? Like an actual checkbox to let Cult Leader eradicate them.

I’m not sure why you chose to put this before your main topic and not after

Just my train of thought, I was aware of that but I when I considered reorganizing my post I was like

¯_(ツ)_/¯

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#8

I created a rework for the Mastermind before the assassin/CL could suicide that fixed the issue of killing by making killing your unseen allies an in game mechanic for the mastermind to use relying on a two-way system similar to the old merc second contract.

https://forum.imperium42.com/t/rework-suggestion-new-day-ability-rework-for-mm/64446

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#9

I prefer having smite till N3

I’ll tell you one game before smite changes

So, I got Paladin. I decided to smite night one, cuz you know, YOLO.(and it’s cult convert night)

I ended up killing someone trying to convert me.

Now that did 3 things:

  1. Killed the Cult Leader
  2. Prevented my conversion
  3. Apparently put the Convert ability on Cooldown

Next night I tested fate someone, got not sus.

3rd night, smited again, and got the other starting cult

Then we only had to worry about NK.

Maybe it’s the Cult’s fault for trying to convert me, but I’m still glad smite is waited till N3. It gives Cult a chance.

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#10

The warmup exists to prevent trolls from ruining games early. It’s not really throwing, as you could’ve hit an evil, but it’s not fun to be yolo CSed/exed early game. And smite doesn’t need a buff, it’s still overpowered. It needs a rework, hardcounters are a broken concept.

#11

Smite isn’t supposed to be convert on cooldown. But I acknowledged in the OP that locking Smite until N3 was VERY good. I just think there must be some even better solution.

#12

You always say hardcounters are broken but what do you mean by hardcounter and why do you think they are broken?

#13

I’m not sure exactly how to explain it so I’ll just give an example. Soft counters are faction checks, surveillance, the current scout, expose, and find magic. Hard counters are the old scout, smite, ruthless efficiency(and inquisitor in general), and frames/tailers(though those are needed because faction checks would be overpowered without them)

They’re not fun to play as or against. How is it fun to be smited as cult leader? They are too reliant on the class they hardcounter. Abilities shouldn’t affect one class. Classes that are designed as a hardcounter have an easy win con as well(inquisitor doesn’t even have to do anything most of the time)

#14

I don’t think that’s a good definition of soft/hard counter. Like you call Paladin a hardcounter to Cult because of Smite but then say they have an easy win con, which isn’t true. Their win con is not abnormally easy.

You also called for a blanket ban on hardcounters but then say frames are hardcounters and are fine.

I think if there was given a clear definition of what a hardcounter is, we could have a more productive discussion.

The definition of hardcounter which you find on Google and which I was familiar with is one that wins a majority of the time even if it and its opponent both play optimally.

#15

I meant classes that are designed as hardcounters have an easy win con. Inquisitor fits under this definition. Paladin is still a hardcounters since smite hardcounter the cult leader.

Frames are the one exception. They are needed because faction checks would be overpowered without them. I would prefer it if neither existed though, faction checks aren’t deduction. It’s also not fun to be called out as evil early game(which is why frames are needed)

#16

But Paladin can’t be a hardcounter since they don’t have an unusually easy win condition, which conflicts with the definition provided.

#17

But the easy win con makes classes a hardcounter. It doesn’t make abilities a hardcounter. How is smite not a hardcounter? It literally only affects the CL, and in a negative way. If smite didn’t only affect the cult then it wouldn’t be a hardcounter.

#18

It was one of those things that got implemented to prevent troll butlers from killing the king N2

#19

So Clear Mind and Fealty are hard counters that should be removed from the game? Since they only affect the leader of the evil faction, and in a negative way.

Also I suppose Inq is the only hard counter class?

#20

The reason smite is efficient is because more often than not you can figure when cult conversion night is. If there are 3 people dead it was non- conversion night,
If it was announced cult game and a low kill count n2, cult missed their convert n1

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