Addressing "Neuts Out"

Claiming a Neutral class should (and usually will) get you killed a lot of the time, and that is actually very healthy for the game. We can’t make Neutrals into these classes where when you claim them suddenly nobody targets you or even bothers executing you, making for a very stale experience and easy win.

Alpha build Alchemist could confirm himself with his day ability and as soon as he did, people just ignored him. Alchemists won almost every game they were in once they confirmed themselves. They often would outright claim Alch immediately and just blur somebody and then wait for their win. This is powerful, but not a fun experience.

Neutrals should never get to a point where they can easily confirm themselves but also not be a significant threat to BD.

If benign Neutrals to BD can confirm themselves, they need to have a drawback or risk associated with keeping them alive. You can’t have a Neutral be both benign and helpful to BD and be nonconvertible. The Alchemist and Merc are the most balanced classes in the game in my perspective. The Merc can be very helpful and useful to BD, but has the risk of being a fakeclaim. The Alchemist has the risk of killing BD and voting with scum, but cannot be converted. However, making the Alchemist convertable would be an over the top nerf.

Merc is the most balanced class in the game right now because of these delicate factors that make BD hesitate to kill them, but also implement that small amount of risk of conversion or having their contract be an evil player.

For a “benign” Neutral class to be fair, it can choose only two of the following items:

  1. Be unconvertable
  2. Largely helpful or useful to BD
  3. Easily confirmable

Merc: Has both items 1 and 2, but is mechanically difficult to prove and can be reliably fakeclaimed by scum. Balanced.
Alchemist: Has items 1 and 2, and ALMOST #3 since bleeds and poisons are so common. Alch is very strong.
Inquisitor: Has items 1, 2, and 3. The Inquisitor cannot mechanically confirm themselves, but the Inquisitor has the "Prince effect’ where it is one of those classes you don’t get a lot of fake CC’s from. If evils are desperate, they may consider CC’ing the Inquisitor, but this rarely happens in my experience. The Inquisitor can confirm easily in this manner. Overpowered (and honestly imo, boring) class.

Scorned: Evil neutral classes don’t apply as they don’t want to confirm their roles.
Fool: Evil neutral classes don’t apply as they don’t want to confirm their roles.

Pro-tip: Claim a BD class in the early game if you are Neutral. If it’s later in the game with 5-6 people left, claiming Neutral might be beneficial as neither faction has the time or resources to eliminate you. Depends on the situation, of course.

Neuts Out is harsh and necessary. Don’t expect free wins once you claim a Neutral class. Neutral classes inherently have some risk associated with them, so if other players decide to execute you based on their own risk tolerance, don’t get salty about it. Accept the consequences of claiming Neutral.

Edit: Updated the Mercenary and added the Inquisitor.

8 Likes

I enjoy neutrals a lot , especially playing as alch . I have had sucsess with two very different tactics .

Kings Buddy and Yolo Alch

Kings buddy I just get with king early and heal him throughout the game , if he wants someone killing i do it for him .

Yolo Alch . I just kill as many people as I can to speed up the game and hope they haven’t got time for a neutral claim .

Sometimes I start YoloAlch and move over to Kings buddy later .

Neuts out Is valid , you need to lie or be bold I think in most situations with this

I generally dont lie as alch or merc unless , the king has died early etc

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breathes in
#NeutsIN #ButtsOutForNeutsIn #AssesForClasses #NeutralAboutNeutrals are #PartOfTheProblem be #PartOfTheSolution by #SavingAnAlch #SaveAnAlchToday #DoYouKnowWhereYourMercIs #ScrewNKsThough also #ScornedAndFoolArePrettyLame

breathes out

With that out of the way, I think that Neuts Out is too harsh, calling for the deaths of all alchs and mercs and all, but it definitely is valid to say neither class should get a free ride, and should have to play their cards right to win, just like anyone else. I really enjoy playing both classes too as it requires more thought than a game where you can rely on a team to help you, having to go out of your way to make enough people happy that you can win alongside them. Essentially, a middle ground needs to be found where people aren’t hungry for neutral blood, but still keep them at arms length.

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I’ll typically heal 1st night as Alchemist and then yolo alchemist N2 and N3. You have a decent enough chance of killing evil classes anyway and then get credit with BD. The more people dead quicker, the better for Alch.

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This sounds about right.

Alchemist is my number 1 favorite class to play because it involves so many complex decisions. Do you heal or kill tonight? Are you aiming for BD or Unseen? Do you whisper a player to tell them you’re Alch or do you fake claim? Alch is fun.

But I never claim Alchemist on the stand unless it’s almost certain scum has majority.

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She has been infected with the Plex Virus. Plz kill.

Honestly NUETS OUT, is shit. I have been alche helping BD alll game, but I get killed.
#NLM

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If I had any change to make, it would be to make Alch’s “Killers”. They can kill people after all (better than most classes in fact) and it would give Reapers and Possessors something to claim other than Knight, Drunk and Butler.

I feel like the BD should always be suspect of any Neut. Often Alchs can just tell the King they’re an Alch and be pretty safe. If things go sideways they can just flip. They should always be a Reaper suspect imo.

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They already ARE a reaper/Poss suspect.

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I think leaving Alchemist as Support is fine. Alchs heal more often than they kill anyway.

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I do not usually “neuts out” the merc, because chances are they are on BD and are making it harder for that BD to be converted. However, if we have 2 physicians, the alchemist has no place here.

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#neutsout #betterdeadthenneut #nueterallneuts #neutsarenewts

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#neutneutmotherfucka

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#NeutLivesMatter
#SaveTheNeuts
#NeutsCanHelp
#NeutsOutOut

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#StopUsingHashtags

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They do, but it’s more a matter of giving Reapers and Possessors cover and making Alchs less reliable claims.

As it is, Reap/Poss tend to have to claim Knight/Butler in case there is a Princess, then they get seen as Neut and instantly die. Adding a way to make Alch not a safe claim would prob be good. They tend to favor BD right now imo.

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I’ve found the former to be very successful as well, although I think the major problem is that some neutral killers are trying to pass as the “King’s buddy” as well now, and that’s inadvertently again leading to the whole “neuts out” mentality.

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I personally think Alch should have a limit to the number of heals, even if it’s a significant number (like 5 or so), then add an extra kill.

Really make the class about decision making rather than spam heal king.

Class is fun but it feels more like a BD with option to turn at the end.

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Me too. I love this tactic as Alch

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This is a really well put together breakdown, and I think I agree with everything you said.

That doesn’t happen often. Nice job.

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Updated the Mercenary and added the Inquisitor.

1 Like