Alchemist is Survivor 2.0

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#1

I feel very conflicted over Alchemist in his current state so far. A couple random thoughts before diving into analysis:

  • Alchemist’s Blur functions only for confirmation. Very rarely is it used for its intended effect of blinding people.

  • Alchemist is a low priority target for both BD and Scum once he confirms himself. Neither faction will commonly spend resources to kill an Alchemist when he can potentially help them. Note: BD may be more likely to kill Alchemist claims.

  • Alchemist is very fun to play as. His kit is extremely lucrative with both the power to kill or heal. You also don’t worry about convincing anyone you are Alchemist as they can confirm through blur.

These combination of factors turn the Alchemist into a singular, Groundhog day type of experience. You claim Alchemist, blur a person or two to get confirmed, and sit back and chill until the game ends. I’m not saying the Alchemist never gets killed at night or gets hanged or gets executed by the Prince - this is not uncommon. The most common way for an Alchemist to die by my guess would be the Prince as it is a neutral claim when the Prince could be running out of time and pressured into executing. Hanging a confirmed Alchemist doesn’t make much sense either unless BD is really losing. Even then the Alchemist may be BD’s only hope, so choosing to let him live to see if he helps them with a clutch win isn’t a bad idea either. Getting killed by a Knight is probably the 2nd most common way a confirmed Alchemist dies. If a Knight chooses to kill the Alchemist early in the game, they are performing a Policy Kill because Alchemist is BD aligned until the tide swings to Scum. Even if an Alchemist decided to support Scum from Day 1, they still don’t know who Scum are and may accidentally help BD anyway.

Ouch. That was a wall of text.

The short version of it all is that Alchemist is a supreme Kingmaker that has wildly powerful abilities and gives neither faction an incentive to actively kill him. Maybe he randomly gets killed at night, maybe the Prince executes him if he isn’t confirmed or if BD numbers are low (but again, if BD is about to eminently lose, executing a confirmed non-scum that could clutch a win for you is a poor decision).

Every role should be a threat and/or in danger of dying in this game. Alchemist is more immune to persecution from other factions than any other role in the game.

My solution: Make Alchemist a convertible role like the Merc. It’s a simple and elegant solution to making Alchemists actually work for their wins. They can still choose to blur somebody to confirm themselves, but risk opening themselves up to a conversion that night. This will cause BD to actually consider lynching Alchemist claims and also increase the win rate for Scum because they’ll be hitting their conversions more often.

Thoughts on the survivor as it stands now?

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#2

I agree.

It would be interesting to see a trial with this by turning Alchemist -> Herbalist/Ritualist

#3

I also agree, but maybe an even darker variant of the Herbalist… maybe?

#4

I would agree but I believe the Herbalist is so ridiculously useless that I wouldn’t curse any class to be turned into one.

#5

It is not useless <.<

#6

Fiiiine

Still sucks tho

#7

How about this?
Master of Poison(needs better name)(Unseen Killing)
Passive 1: Poisonous Studies: Immune to Poison. This ability will be kept upon conversion to the Assassin.
Day ability 1: Blur:(same as alchemist)

Night ability 1:Dangerous medicine(3 uses):Heal someone, preventing their death(except from Poison). They die from Poison four nights later. They are randomly notified of the Poison two days before their death.
**Night ability 2:**Black Potion(1 use) Kill someone with Poison, instantly.

#8

A non-assassin unseen member killing others? The only other instance of this is the enforcer…

#9

… on the other hand you converted a Neutral, not a Blue Dragon.

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#10

I like the concept of making neutral conversions have stronger counterparts. It offsets the fact that neutrals may have sided with them anyway without a conversion.

Now that I think about it a converted Alchemist should lose his ability to kill. 2 deaths a night from Scum is a no-no (for the most part).

#11

Boslof made a point to me about it in a call.

If Alchemist was convertible, then BD would want them dead asap and upon “Proving” themselves to be Alch, they’re dead.

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#12

That’s a very good point.

The question is - is it better to have an Alch that can confirm and almost never gets hanged, or one that confirms and almost always gets hanged?

In the world without converted Alchs, they act as Physicians and Knights rolled into one that Scum can’t reasonably risk killing. That’s an incredibly remarkable role. Granted, they are neutral, but an Alchemist choosing to side with Scum immediately upon game start aren’t looking to win - they are working on policy.

In the world with converted Alchs, Alchemists wouldn’t claim until pressured and would likely be hanged even after confirming with blur. However, I can expect some rare circumstances where BD is losing too badly to hang a potential Neutral Alch and ask them to team up with them instead. Additionally, BD may be 100% certain of what the converted role is (somebody gets drugged a la Herbalist, for example) so an Alchemist claim is confirmed to be neutral and benign.

I guess it really depends on if we think BD needs more of a challenge or not.

@Ellie

#13

When it comes to Neutral classes, it’s hard to find a system where they’re not basically Survivor 2.0.

#14

The Mercenary is not Survivor 2.0 because they can be contracted to an Evil, plus they are convertable.
The Fool is exactly what a survivor is not.
The killers are… well killers.
The Alchemist is confirmable, highly powerful, and not convertable.
The King has only to survive, but as there are both an evil and a good counterpart, there is little faith in a Neutral claim.
So yeah, make the Alchemist convertable and he has to hide like the rest.

#15

you forgot the scorned

#16

Well, yeah. The Scorned… strange thing. But still, the Scorned can have BD as targets, so… everything is dependant on the targets.

#17

Not a solution though.

#18

uh why not?

#19

Because as soon as you claim Alchemist, you’re gonna get executed right away. At least with Merc, it’s contractable to a BD.

Alchemist, that has no allegiance to anyone, being convertible, no one’s going to care if you live or die.

Also, because of my previous quote:

#20

That is the point.
Claim Alchemist and you are dead.
Claim something else and you might survive. Makes it an actual challenge.