Here’s a different question: how much of BD’s winrate would you attribute directly to the current meta?
I just don’t like it because only the King gets to experience good mafia scumreading
3 Likes
I want the chat to be more sparkly make every different person color different in chat
2 Likes
I’m definitely arguing against it, but you didn’t refute any of my claims of variability.
Is there a hidden high ELO queue that I’m not aware of?
Some mistakes are worse than others. A Prince executing a BD is worse than a Butler occupying a BD. A Good King getting mislynched with all of BD’s claims in his journal is a pricey mistake. #notallmistakesarecreatedequal
2 Likes
Like…I don’t know man. Objectively speaking, there is so much uncertainty with the WKM and when it fails, it fails HARD.
and we haven’t even started talking about if people think it’s fun or not.
1 Like
Is there a hidden high ELO queue that I’m not aware of?
I was clarifying that my position is WKM is optimal play when all players are advanced. I make no judgement about what the best strategy is for when King bought the game 5 minutes ago, etc.
In-game, I try to assume everyone is as skilled as I am and anyone who claims or pretends otherwise is trying to deceive me. This is partly because “I’m noob” claims are usually lies, and partly because if for example I execute Good King because he played suspiciously and he turned out to be inexperienced, it doesn’t feel as bad as if I let him off the hook and it turns out he was feigning ignorance.
Some mistakes are worse than others. A Prince executing a BD is worse than a Butler occupying a BD. A Good King getting mislynched with all of BD’s claims in his journal is a pricey mistake. #notallmistakesarecreatedequal
That is true. But the most important point I made was that I have yet to see anyone propose a superior strategy than WKM, and I think that is compelling evidence itself that WKM is the best at the moment.
I agree with that this is the #1 reason. Depending on your playstyle however, you start doing it as a means to end, that end being co-ordination.
I also agree with this. Not claiming to the king is NAI.
The main reason this has arisen is because some kings have a ‘claim or die’ mentality. Sometimes a claim AND die if you claim too late. Pushing against the king if he is perceived to be overly aggressive or overly passive puts a lot of pressure on the king. More evil classes need to be doing this because a starting king lynch in a vacuum is a +EV play
Agree on all points.
This is why as Noble there is a major emphasis on asking for cw to empower you.
Something I’ve started implementing into my game as possessor is to jump into the king and get all the claims and scoot off to someone else.
My problem is with the fact that you cite both instances of what happens upon a king dying as disadvantageous.
The EK shouldn’t keep his logs publicly for a start. More infomation is +EV for BD. Secondly if EK finds his allies and whispers them, its similar to when you whisper your scumbuddies during the day; you both get caught. There is an inherent risk to this, and it becomes double or nothing.
Again, more infomation for BD is better overall.
You think the P(GK is mislynched) decreases in a non KWM environment?
The king more or less becomes a doublevoting citizen with death immunity in such a scenario.
That is why it should be a big, big part of anyone’s scum game to pressure the king.
Neither is staying silent the whole day
What active strategy should BD take in that case? Because sitting around waiting for leads is like sheep waiting outside a slaughterhouse.
Claiming to the king and pressuring him gives BD the opportunity to co-ordinate effectively or recognise that when things do not go their way, to figure out that there is someone sinister pulling the strings.
2 Likes
Are you trying to imply that this is weak? Because a Death immune doublevoter BD is a huge threat to scum and a huge asset to BD as it effectively means they have an extra person on their team compared to if that person was not a doublevoter
1 Like
Each person should be individually putting pressure on those they have suspicion on and communicating with those you trust. If people have a series of 1 on 1 interactions as opposed to a single everyone talks to a single player then the system is much harder to compromise as a whole as converting or eliminating one group usually only trips up a single player. This makes mistakes more manageable as no one player is the lynchpin so no one kill can lose BD the game.
These smaller groups are still enough to coordinate to prove each other leading to deceteralized townblocks which can self regulate amungst themselves. If one of these blocks gets big enough (and it usually does as more players get confirmed) it eventually becomes big enough that PoE is enough to figure out who outside the block is scum.
Since smaller groups can spend more energy checking each player in the group that means that scum reads can be successful more often. As groups grow there are more people to check but also more people to check them. To contrast WKM has only one player who is expected to verify everyone at once
1 Like
So, here’s the thing. I want to tell you some BD gambits that work really well for me, but I also don’t want to give away a bunch of secrets at the same time. I don’t want what I do to be out there in the ether and get popular or whatever.
I’ll explain just a couple because they’re very basic and NOBODY does this and I have no idea why.
Depending on your BD class, you can always push people. For example - Butler. I will occupy someone at night, and if I’m successful, I’ll demand them to claim to me in a whisper else they’re getting occupied again (sometimes I will or will not continue the occupation depending on their tone.)
Are you a Princess and found a Social/Support N1? Whisper them for their class and let them know you found them as S/S. Unless they are exactly the Ritualist or Apostle, then you found a non-NK, non-Unseen/Cult unless they got converted the night you checked.
Stuff like that. That’s just a small example of using your power as BD to interrogate. There are plenty of gambits you can run as BD as well that are almost foolproof, but everybody just gets their night results and just waits to see who is getting put to the stand the next day…
2 Likes
I’m not implying that is weak. But an uninformed double voting death immune citizen who doesn’t know what’s what can also cause a lot of damage if he is misled
2 Likes
Except they are. No one whispers to anyone besides the King or Prince in WKM so these don’t lead to the formation of groups and eventually townblocks. And even if they did the system still has the King as an exploitable weak point meaning you keep the downsides when you didn’t have to.
Sketch, do you try and balance this so when you are evil, you attempt these same gambits for towncred? Or do you play a more exploitable approach to increase your chance of winning?