Change CW to third initial-spawn character for Unseen

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

This would be a huge improvement for BD as it would ensure only half of the time a CW will spawn plus they’ll read as Unseen and can be murdered.

Tornado is hands down the worst ability in the game, and the character needs to be switched or removed. I don’t say this from a place of salt, just analytical truth. When you’re switching people, you’re rolling dice that the people you’re targeting are going to somehow swap to a more beneficial outcome. You have no investigative powers, so you don’t even know for certain if you’re being useful in your redirection. Giving the power the benefit of the doubt, let’s say you know a character is Prince and a character NK. You know beyond a shadow of a doubt that both characters are these classes.

What do you do to use that ability to the fullest? Redirect the Prince with someone else? Redirect the Prince and the NK? There are so many ways to potentially screw over BD, like stopping a drunk from occupying the NK that night, or forcing a CS on the prince. This is assuming you KNOW a good guy and a bad guy, you still can’t assure the power is put to good use.

How much more when you have no idea who’s who. Night 1, swap 16 and 4? SURE, WHY THE HELL NOT LET’S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

The current iteration of CW is so bad, even compared to the last version, and that’s saying something. He definitely needed changed, but this is much worse.

1 Like
#2

The even made the avatar the CW, I am feeling pretty trolled tbh.

#3

Actually, everyone’s Avatar is randomized. You are also free to change it.

I’ve also moved this to the correct section, please avoid posting in the wrong area.

1 Like
#4

Ah, sorry, my bad.

#5

Oh look, another person whining about Tornado - despite it being incredible powerful if used well.

We should have Prince Spawn as Unseen too as it killed the confirmed Sheriff night 3 that one time…

4 Likes
#6

The CW needs Barrier back. But unlike what everyone else is asking for I want it to replace ice ward instead of tornado.

1 Like
#7

so make court wizard extremely good?

2 Likes
#8

Just because people are yet to understand the potency of the Court Wizard doesnt make him bad.
The best thing to do is use Ice Ward n1 and n2 then swap yourself with someone you suspect is evil OR swap yourself with a powerful Blue Dragon you want to protect. Randomly swapping people is a bad strategy… but so is occupying Blue Dragons as Butler, Executing Blue Dragons as Prince etc.

3 Likes
#9

I would like to challenge everyone who says that Tornado is powerful, answer my question above. You know who the Prince and NK is out-the-gate. You can’t execute them, the Prince can’t jail them. What do you do? How do you make Tornado useful?

#10

You bait the NK into attacking itself

#11

OK, what if the NK doesn’t take the bait and attack you? What if he decides to attack the prince, or someone else that’s less useful?

What if the Knight also knows the NK is the bad guy and goes to CS him, but ends up CSing you because you tried to get the NK to attack you?

That’s my point. There is no way to make the ability assuredly useful. It can be useful, but there is no way you can know if what you’re doing will be useful. Thus, it’s gambling. The Princess’ ability always yields set results. The Princes’ ability always yield set results. You could say things like YOLO bombing, random CSing or Paladins/Sheriffs doing checks are also gambling, but the difference is that you are the one who gets to make the determination on if the risk is worth it, and you have to live with the consequences of those actions. If you CS someone and they are BD, that’s fine because everyone knows that the person you targetted is BD. If you investigate someone and they’re NS, that information is still useful, just not as useful as finding the baddies.

With Tornado, it is literally all RNG that’s outside of your hands, and that’s giving you the benefit of knowing 100% that someone is NK and someone is Prince. If you can’t 100% put an ability to good use when you know for a fact that someone is good and someone is evil, that’s the sign of a bad ability.

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#12

Nothing is 100%

#13

If I CS someone, does my ability get used against them? Yes. I have complete control over if they are CSed. Now, the results of that CS have yet to be determined, but even if I’m wrong and the person I’m CSing is good, that still provides useful information.

Let me put this another way. Tornado is the only ability that you can set up any scenario you want and I can find a way to make Tornado A) Not useful or B) Detrimental.

Let’s take another class for example. Butler. I can acccidentally occupy a Paladin the first three nights of game preventing any investigation. This is definitely a bad thing, right? Totally. The difference between it and Tornado is that I am actively choosing to occupy that person. When I tornado someone, I am literally hoping that my Tornado is useful. I have no idea who is going to target who, which people are good and which people are bad. All I can do is luck my ability into being useful.

#14

But the people who’s targets are swapped are told who they ended up targetting

#15

You can’t introduce variables into a debate that weren’t in the question

#16

I’m putting in my 2 cents. That’s it

#17

@Simon Sure, you know your targets were swapped, but how is that helpful? If I’m a Paladin and I want to target 8, but I’m forced to target 16, how does that help me? Again, I’m not saying Tornado can’t be useful, it’s possible I luck into redirecting a NK attack to a member of the Cult, or I lucky into forcing a Paladin to investigate someone who is Sus. But there’s no “200 IQ plays” you can do, there’s no employment of social deduction and seeing “If I occupy this dude, does no one die tonight?” it’s literally all just RNG.

@Moleland The entire point of the debate is the utility of Tornado. Everything I’ve posted has been towards proving it’s lack of guaranteed utility and that all use of the power, with absolute information or no information, is purely based on luck of who decides to target who.

I am still waiting for someone to give me a scenario where Tornado is useful and I can’t find a way to make it not useful.

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#18

If you know who the Prince and NK are and you swap them then the NK CANNOT kill the Prince. Same for if you know an Unseen/cult. Unlike with butler or drunk however the effect isn’t negated entirely if you’re wrong. If you think someone is sus then so does the cult and unseen. They are unlikely to attack or convert them because they can execute them in the day. Now you could say: But then Investigators can’t do their job. What you do is whisper some trusted people who you are swapping so they know who to invest that night.

#19

That is IF you know who the investigator is and you trust them. How many times do you know who the, for sure, sheriff/paladin or princess is? Do you even trust them with that info. If they are unseen you die for being the CW. Every single debate against tornado being POWERFUL is perfect scenarios where you know 100% facts. That doesn’t happen in most games. Tornado causes more havoc than it does help. That is why people hate it. Sure it CAN be powerful late game if you know certain facts but lets face it, we don’t. Very few games will you know who the prince is, who the assasin/nk is, or who the investigators are. 9/10 you will yolnado into a BDs death or your own. Sure you saved that knight from dying because you swapped him with the psychic, but you lost the psychic now.

I have been tracking how many times tornado killed an evil/nk. I am up to 1 in the last 20 games. 1 time… I challenge others to do the same tracking and see, especially those who claim it is powerful. Also i challenge you to be truthful to yourself and others. It is a shit spell that needs to go. it is powerful 15% of the time but causes havoc 85% of the time. That is terrible and shouldn’t be defended.

Also as a CW if you know who the evil/nk is, so does the rest of the court… and they will be attacked, debauched, occupied, or executed the next day. Do you really want to swap that. I have many times swapped a known assassin with someone else and it caused the drunk to not occupy him three nights. this caused the MM to get off free kills. That is what we are talking about.

2 Likes
#20

You don’t need too know 100%
You just have to take that chance