Change CW to third initial-spawn character for Unseen

Feedback/Suggestions
#21

That’s the problem, it’s all a chance. I feel like there’s a lot of confusion about the arguments being made against Tornado. I think what people are hearing is “If I Tornado someone, I can’t be certain that it will be helpful”. That is true for every ability. If I Investigate someone as Paladin, I’m not sure if that information will be helpful. If I occupy someone as Butler, I am not sure if that information will be helpful.

What we are saying is, if I Tornado someone, I have no control over that tornado being helpful." It’s a subtle but important difference. If I occupy someone, I can’t be certain occupying them will be 100% helpful to BD winning, but I 100% know the results of my actions, and that will further help me with future actions. Maybe I occupied the Princess N1 and three people died. Great! I can be relatively certain that individual isn’t a killer. If I tornado someone, I have no control over who visits them, I have no information on who visits them, it is literally just redirection. Even if it was one way redirection, that would be immensely better. Say someone proves they’re sheriff, I could redirect anyone targeting them to someone I felt was sus. In that situation, I stand a chance of redirecting a healer trying to heal them, a conversion attempt to someone else, or class trying to investigate them, or I could cause another (potentially more useful BD) to die.

But I know 100% the results of my actions will stop my target from being affected by powers that night. But in the current iteration of Tornado, I don’t have that luxury. The individual I’m trying to protect can still be killed, occupied, and screwed over entirely by proxy, and what’s worse is that I could screw up things for two people. I can force a Knight to CS a confirmed BD and force a healer to heal a bad guy, because I have no control over if my power is useful or not. And that’s the problem.

#22

I died instead of a phys before - that phys healed 3 people and revived me as a DK

#23

No.
It’s not all chance
It’s not all skill, either
Its semi-random
And you do have some choice in our all,
Use what you know, and target two people which is likely to give a good effect

2 Likes
#24

This is again a very specific situation that fits your argument. I am saying in general the chances are greater it is a hindrance. I know there are very rare uncontrollable situations where it has won the game or saved someone else to win. I’m not oblivious to that fact. I am saying as a whole in general that rarely if ever happens. You can’t point out a few specific examples and counter argue that tornado is a great ability. I refuse to accept that.

#25

Key words here. “Which is likely” you are 100% guessing with no feedback you can actually learn from. Did that swap help? Did it hurt? How many games you play do you know exactly who is evil and who isn’t to swap? It’s all a guess and like he said, you have no control nor feedback.

#26

I have seen more healers diverted and knights suicide than anything. Not to mention how many limited use charges that are lost on a target that was swapped.

1 Like
#27

Did you read my post?
You have some control over it almost always
But you can almost never garuntee a good effect
Same with most abilities

2 Likes
#28

“What if it is just you, NK, and prince and prince can’t jail him”

why can’t he jail them? Is he dumb?

#29

Well, Prince can only jail someone 3 times. That said, if NK has been in jail 3 times and survived… the fuck?

1 Like
#30

At most it is EQUALLY likely to be a hindrance. Afterall you are just as likely to swap a psy and a knight when the Knight is being attacked as when the psy is being attacked. If anything the psy is more likely to be attacked because the Unseen and Cult want him dead/converted more than Cult. Same applies to Prince.

In fact the least likely person that an unseen is to target is another unseen. That means that the swap itself inheritly has greater odds of doing something good than doing something bad.

1 Like
#31

CW should be replaced with my Doomsayer/Soothsayer class suggestion, or at the very least be a rare spawn class which is mutually exclusive to the Doomsayer/Soothsayer.

It’s much for the same reason: CW needs to be played in coordination with the king or another investigative type but there is no way to bridge the communication gap early in the game.

Soothsayer/Doomsayer resolve that.

#32

CW is good, but to make better I think they should just be able to choose a person and change their target

#33

Honestly, the class in its current form is terrible because of how easily it lends itself to trolling. I usually run into multiple games a day where the Court Wizard entertains himself by deliberately swapping BD members in a negative way: like swapping a poisoned/bleeding person so they can’t get healed without crazy luck. Played in this way, the CW is basically a Neutral Killer who carries a massive penalty with him if he’s executed.

I get the obvious power of the ability, and a well-played CW can dominate, but all it takes is a bit of boredom and they’ll completely ruin a game for you. I’m not sure what exactly is the proper fix, but I don’t think giving a BD class abilities that are that easy to abuse is the way to go.

#34

I can abuse butler by occupying the physician.

I can abuse prince by randomly executing a BD then jailing investigators for three nights at a time.

I can abuse good king by force exing a prince.

I can abuse hunter by wolfing BD

2 Likes
#35

At the risk of you actually being serious, let’s tackle the arguments one by one.

Yes, Butler can annoy people. But there’s a 3-occupy limit, after which the target becomes immune. Furthermore, nothing about occupying a BD inherently increases their risk of getting killed, although it might encourage the court to execute someone. You’ll probably die next, though. In any case though, this rarely happens.

Prince can’t execute anybody until Night 3. If he hits a BD, he can no longer execute. Jailing people also counts toward the occupy limit, and unless they’re already poisoned or bleeding, there is a 0% chance a BD will die as a result of being jailed. This is rare.

Your Good King argument is probably the most laughable of all. First, you have a 1/16 chance of even being the King in the first place. Then, you have to pass another 1/3 of even being Good. Then, you have to positively identify the Prince, which is impossible to do without help from others. Then, you have to convince the rest of the court to vote him up. At that point, yes, you can execute him. If you successfully pulled all of that off, congratulations. You’re still a jerk. You probably have never seen this happen unless you did it yourself.

Hunter also can’t attack until Night 3. Hunter cannot attack the King. Hunter’s attack does not kill instantly - giving the victim a chance to get healed - and it also does not affect all classes. Furthermore, the Hunter can’t stop anybody from healing the victim. Some Hunters are loose cannons, and they can still do a lot of damage to BD, but there are restrictions. Everyone has probably experienced this at least once, but it’s still far from common.

Here is a complete guide to griefing as a Court Wizard:

  1. Decide you want to grief.
  2. Swap one or two people repeatedly until you get bored or one of you dies.
  3. If you did not die, go back to Step 1.

Doing this can easily increase the odds of getting a BD killed, and if they’re poisoned or bleeding, you can pretty much guarantee it. You can also pretty much guarantee no one can investigate that person. Unless you are occupied, there is zero counterplay to this.

In about 150 hours of playtime, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen any of your scenarios occur. I had four separate games where Court Wizards decided to grief yesterday alone.

These are not even remotely the same thing.

#36

I’m pretty sure it is a player problem, not a class problem

1 Like
#37

It is clearly a player problem. The problem is that the CW abilities are extremely easy to abuse. Accepting the fact that online multiplayer tends to bring out jerks in numbers, I personally would like to see the CW ability changed in some way to something with less grief potential.

#38

I wonder what it is about CW that make people muck around with it and not other classes?

#39

I mean, it takes very little effort.

#40

if there is one physician, and you occ them, someone dies.

  1. you can execute someone still
  2. you can kill anyone poisoned bleeding
  3. you can occ sheriff/pala
  1. You have a less than 1/2 chance of being CW, that means CW can’t hurt BD

EDIT: If you can’t tell by the last one, it is not serious, it is making fun of your saying good king can’t do bad because it is rare you end up as one