hey
at least i tried
i did
i was the one spamming ālol leafia scum towncore compromisedā a lot but i was too tunneled in on leafia to really consider or acknowledge anyone else
i think i was too set/reliant on leafiaās flip before doing anything else tbh
I think it was less that town was garbage and more that town didnāt listen to each other. Some people had the right idea, but were unable to convince the others because of all the yelling that went on.
Wolves obviously contributed to the heated atmosphere, especially Alice with her aggressive language and 3p agenda. That didnāt help. Nevertheless, it was an unhealthy environment for the villagers, which obviously contributed to the loss.
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dude i suck at analyzing when someone is trying to push an agena vs a misguided or misinformed townie how do i improve on that
It was obvious the game was going to suck for town when Leafia and Napoleon were sucking the oxygen out of the thread. Then Leafia was at it again with Alice.
Yeah not the best town game Iāve seen.
A general sign of agenda is that somebody takes a singular scummy thing (or a few) and pushes them into oblivion regardless of all the villagery things their target has done.
By default, agenda is based on ignoring what is towny and exaggerating what is scummy. Which is how you can find a player pushing agenda. By realizing that they are ignoring towny things and they stubbornly refuse to re-evaluate/change their mind. Itās kinda similar to tunnelling in that sense.
The way you can differentiate between tunnelling town / agenda-pushing mafia isā¦ frankly, it can be difficult sometimes, but it can be done. A common sign I am aware of is the following:
Agenda-pushers decide a player is scum before pushing their agenda, which can be seen in their posts (the assumption comes before analysis). With tunnelers, they generally reach their conclusion within the thread ā there is actual progression. The difference lies in the TMI. An agenda-pushing wolf does not make a read, they simply justify a āscumread,ā which means that āthis player is scumā is a āconclusionā they reach before any āanalysis.ā With tunnelling town, they reach the eventual conclusion after analysis/interaction within the thread and start pushing based on that.
Also, agenda-pushers deliberately ignore the signs of towniness of the player they are pushing, meanwhile a tunnelling villager simply does not see them (because they are tunnelling). This is more difficult to see, but sometimes, it can be seen. There can be a difference in tone (tunnelling town is more reckless, more overtly silly in their push and less inclined to consider things), content, and more.
Iād give you specific examples, but there are too many. Even in this game.
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I probably would have voiced suspicion on Alice D3 if I lived.
Sadly I get to watch Alice win the game solo while the town are running around like headless chickens, and the mafia had a mass die off from event 3.
Aliceās voting pattern was obvious scum. Voting pattern = win condition = slot alignment.
I donāt think even Alice can avoid having her voting pattern testify against her.
Iām not going to pretend that differentiating agenda from tunnelling is an easy thing. Sometimes, it can be quite easy to distinguish pushes in bad faith from genuine pushesā¦ it really depends on the reasons the pusher is using and how they present them. Itās difficult to discuss in general terms, but I think Iāve listed the primary differences between v/w reckless pushes.
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This is incorrect. Alice was 3p with no faction of her own. She had no TMI. Her voting pattern alone says nothing for that reason ā she does not actually know who she is voting.
Of course, she would be inclined to vote out members of certain factions at certain times, because she needs to kill both factions. However, it is dependent on her reads and not on TMI, meaning that her voting pattern can be inaccurate (she could be voting people of the incorrect alignment by sheer accident).
Conclusion: while you can rely on it to some extent, it is not very accurate due to her being 3p.
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Consider how many other villagers exclusively voted town this game (or low-hanging fruit wolves anyone could vote with no pushback). Yeah. You could misread them based on that as well.
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Alice as āconfirmed townā wasnāt dying in the day or night. That should have been a red flag she was being miscleared.
This is trueā¦ partially. That doesnāt relate to her voting pattern, though.
In that specific game, it was incorrect too. Mafia never tried to kill her, because her reads were bad (on purpose, but still). You could theoretically claim that she was scum, but you could also make a case for her being town and alive (āher reads are just bad this game and thatās why sheās aliveā). I see where youāre coming from, and you could use it as an argument, but it wasnāt a huge red flag, in my opinion.
As you see, itās difficult to read 3p members. Which is why I donāt really like lone 3p members. Hunting for them is a foolās errand if they know what they are doing.
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3p members have the advantage of never being burdened with TMI unless it comes to discovering exactly the neutral killer, which is why they are capable of having genuine reads on groupscum. In open setups, this is less of an issue, because the presence of a neutral killer is known and they can be found based on that knowledge. In closed setups, this is a massive issue ā not only because you may not know how many scum are still alive (or if they are even still in the game, after multiple scum flips), but also because you donāt expect the necessity to hunt for someone with no TMI on groupscum (but who is still scum).
This is why NK in closed setups is a particularly annoying thing for villagers, and why itās more difficult to find them in that situation than it appears at first glance.
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You canāt find them through mechanics because lolclaimvig and most people will not out their info, you canāt find them through TMI because they have no TMI on groupscum, and you canāt find them through agenda because their only agenda is āanyone but me.ā They have no obligation to keep anyone else alive, and all alignments generally want to self-pres. Incredibly frustrating at times.
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There are exceptions to this, of course, especially when they are close to winning and need to be more pushy. Generally speaking, however, what I said applies.
I donāt really blame town for not being able to find Alice, but I still think that town should work more coherently as a unit and be less afraid of pushing the stronger players. That game goes differently with less TvT arguing and a consistent, solid, cooperative towncore.
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This is why Iāve been wanted to rand NK for a while here.
I doubt there will be any noticeable difference from how I play NK from town.
Only way to know is to play enough games until I rand as NK.
I disagree with Aliceās voting pattern not being scum AI.
Neutral Killer doesnāt wish to see every town live, nor every scum live.
If theyāre pushing for a balance of lynches itās an indicator of NK.
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