[Class Rework Suggestion] Apostle

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Since the Noble was re-introduced to the game, Apostle had to undergo some serious changes which I do not agree with.
In fact, this converted class became a carbon copy of Noble for the Cult. Compared to Invoker, Ritualist and Seeker, this doesn’t fit the theme at all and has been bothering me ever since the patch came out.

My proposition on how to rework this class, as following:

Class name: Apostle;
Type: Social;
Faction: Cult;
Converted from: Psychic, Noble;
Unique: No.

Passive Abilities:
‘Dark Words’ - Allows the Cult to communicate with its dead members while you are alive.

Day Abilities:
‘Compelling Presence’ [2] charges - Force a player to accuse another player and prevent them from voting further.
‘Voice of Corax’ [1] charge - Your next two messages will be telepathically sent to all Cult members.

Night Abilities:
‘Eavesdrop’ [2] charges - You will be able to hear the first 4 whispers tomorrow.
‘Mindwarp’ [2] charges - Cause a player to receive incorrect feedback from their abilities tonight.

Conclusion:
These changes intend to make Apostle fit into the Cult like other converts while still being able to reliably prove himself.
‘Compelling Presence’ and ‘Eavesdrop’ will help Apostle to decieve others into thinking that he is a Noble, while ‘Voice of Corax’ and ‘Dark Words’ focus on the Social aspect of the class. Being able to properly utilize ‘Mindwarp’ will help the Cult to swing the game in their favor as well.
This suggestion might not be properly balanced out, yet I think that it would not be too strong, considering that Psychic is a unique class that is not guaranteed to spawn and the chances of converting a Noble are relatively low.
Please let me know your opinion on this.

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#2

I like this merge of Psychic and Noble, and fully fits the theme of the Cult in my opinion

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#3

hey this is pretty gud

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#4

Voice of Corax seems kinda useless, since they have a night chat already. Noble and Psychic can no longer prove themselves at day with this incarnation. Noble: Vote someone up and have him pardon twice. Psychic: Use telepathy. I think Voice of Corax would be fine if it worked just like telepathy on illusionist. The rest looks good.

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#5

You can prove your ‘Noble’ claim with Compelling Presence which is literally same as Political Pressure, just under a different name. “I just made [5] accuse [10], you all saw it and he can’t vote now”.

Voice of Corax is there so you can coordinate the Cult during the day, as a replacement to old Silent Whispers. As an example, you Eavesdrop [6] whispering King that he is a Prince and [12] claimed Hunter in jail. You use VoC to relay this to the Cult immediately in case you are jailed next or are about to be put on trial.
My intent for this ability was to alert your allies during the day if something crucial happens or if you hear some urgent information. Situational? Perhaps, but I think it would still be more or less useful.

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#6

How about this. Make VoC just telepathy but then give the Apostle a passive that says that your journal is not revealed to anyone but the cult on death.

#7

Also the first 4 is not enough. Infact, any finite number isn’t because you just have that meny dummy whispers before it’s safe to talk

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#8

Except that doesn’t really prove it, because if it is implemented like you suggested the BD knows noble/apostle can both do this and it just narrows it down to those 2 claims. However only a noble can use doublevoting on a trial so BD can vote someone up, everyone pardons, and have noble use his power to confirm him 100%. Very similar to a reaper check.

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#9

You could just make the first ability have different effects depending on how it is used.

‘Compelling Presence’ [2] charges - Control someone to vote for someone else or select yourself to empower your own vote (used on self would have the effect of noble twin on trial or the effect of royal finger otherwise but on any target.)

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#10

Indeed, but its not like you are put up on trial immediately after getting converted or starting a game. Besides, BD voting someone up just to prove you is +1 wasted trial + wasted time. You can also force someone to accuse and say you already used your ability. Its much more convenient to make Noble use Pressure and if you suspect its Apostle - let Paladin investigate them (thats where Ritualist’s Brotherhood even comes into play).

Its not like everyone asks outed Drunks to Happyhour a target immediately next night either and the whole situation is same as asking converted Psychic to use Telepathy. You have to be found by BD first. Besides, you might be asked to Snoop or MS someone instead buying you another night. Even then you can pretend you sent a spy on ANYONE with Eavesdrop or just Snoop any of your Cult members.

#11

That would be way too powerful in my opinion. Apostle is just a Cult convert, why should he have both of the Nobles abilities in one? As for your comment on “first 4 whispers not being enough”, I really doubt people will be spamming crap at the start of the day just to prevent the possibility of that happening. After all, old Eavesdrop worked wonders and Apostle as a convert is (and will be) a rarity.

#12

I like the idea, but it could use some changes.

This is useless. The cult already have a night chat, so what’s the point? Change it to this:
Voice of corax(passive) - whispers to and from you will be hidden from the court.

Again, this is useless. Change it so it hears all whispers tomorrow, or make it the same as maid spy, but can target the king.

This isn’t to useful since it only has two uses. Replace it with snoop.

#13

Apostle convert is no longer as much as a rarity with the nobles back. Old Eavesdrop was great because you were not using it to prove anything and no one would know which 4 Whispers were being read. If someone is trying to make you prove yourself then they will not accept a method that could be easily faked when there exists one that cannot.

And yes people would definitely spam whispers at the start of the day to avoid him

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#14

I wrote why I think VoC is useful above. Basically, a way for Cult to communicate/direct each other in the day. Having hidden whispers could be good though, not sure how balanced on the other hand.

Change it so it hears all whispers tomorrow, or make it the same as maid spy, but can target the king.

That would just make Apostle same as Noble (the whole design which I’m trying to discard), only 100 times more OP.

This isn’t to useful since it only has two uses. Replace it with snoop.

So thats literally same as Noble again. How is it not useful, if this completely screws an Investigative class and gives you a chance to kill them for feeding wrong feedback to the court?

#15

But silent whispers would achieve the same purpose. Maybe it could be changed into a passive instead that gives the cult a separate chat during the day?

But the current version you have is useless. Maybe make it so it can hear all whispers, but only has 1 use?

Nothing wrong with that. Noble and psychic are the only 2 convertable social classes.

It only has 2 uses though. And snoop is a bit more useful since it can reveal your target’s class and any information they have.

#16

I like the idea. Compelling Presence is identical to Cult Pressure, so that’s good.
I guess Voice of Corax works, but I’m not sure it is super useful. It might be better if it had the Psychic/Illusionist telepathic message, since any Psychic claim is impossible without it.
Eavesdrop seems kind of arbitrary, and doesn’t really work like noble, so maybe keep Cult Spy?
Mindwarp definitely works.

Dark Words is also pretty nice, because it lets the dead cult do something, and pass on information. I do think this would be better than the current Apostle.

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