[Class Suggestion] : Corax (Cult Support)

I provide basic ideas for people to refine, this is where I step out

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also, to keep in mind for the math, that its 1/5 / 1/7 / 1/20 of cult games
so that lessens the chance that much more

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Cult doesn’t spawn with < 11 anyway :man_shrugging:

Not even gonna read the abilities tbh, you can’t have a God be a class. Corax and Mithras are Gods, it would be silly to not be immortal, 'cause pretty much the only way the BD can win the cult is by executing; and successfully executing a God sounds odd, doesn’t it?

Any feedback on the abilities? Do you think they are balanced or overpowered?

All I’m reading is

1 out of 7 games the Cult is guaranteed to win.

Corax is crazy strong compared to the other Cult classes.

In what way? He can’t kill and he can’t convert. What abilities do you think will be overpowered? If you use your abilities every night and day you only have enough uses until d5 at the very worst. This role rewards you for being able to manage your abilities effectively. Also as Simon said, the chance of getting this role is fairly small. This role spices up the game, making Cult being able to speed up the game a bit and saving other Cult members. Every ability Corax has is a variation of an ability that already exists, so I’m not adding anything new.

Just the passives alone are overwhelming.

Night immunity and occupy immunity are one thing, but to tack on the ability to make Butlers believe they successfully roleblocked somebody seems a bit over the top.

The other passive makes him immune to investigators as well.

I mean, the passives only make this dude untouchable, whereas every other Cult member is killable and discoverable by the Paladin.

The controlling a player is just an unlimited version of the Invoker, and while it is on the cooldown you still have the option to do something at night.

The problem with this class is this – when you don’t spawn with it, you feel like you’re already behind, but when you do, you breathe a sigh of relief. This class is so much better than any other Cult variant that it feels bad to the team when it doesn’t spawn.

I do believe Cult is weak but giving them a single, OP tool that only affects 15% of their games isn’t the way to do it. It’s swingy and will be frustrating to play against.

One of those 3 passives has to go, IMO.

I see what you mean, But remember that Protective Eye only works for the first 3 nights, which is basically a MM passive. I do agree that Butlers thinking they succeeded is a little op, so let me nerf that. For the invoker type of ability the cooldown is ment for you to think what is worth more, framing someone or taking control of someone, because if you just add number of uses people can spam it. Again, this is a role that rewards you for thinking ahead and should be something to spice up the game, not something to be an instantaneous win condition because this role is UNABLE TO CONVERT OR KILL. This role is entirely about deception and chaos, which theoratically should be the case because Corax is the god of Darkness. If you got any alternatives go ahead and tell me. Ps: This role again is ment to make games interesting, think of it as “Hey! Consigliere in Town of Salem is so good, but even if it doesn’t spawn we still have a nice chance of winning” kind of mindset. The role is a powerful one indeed, but the fact that it’s so good requires some balancing of spawn rate, you know what I mean?

So, any more balancing issues or is this role okay?

I don’t think it is good game design to make such swingy roles like this. Taking this extreme further, we could make an Unseen role that is immune to death, occupation, can kill 2 people per night and have 2 extra votes, but we only make it spawn once every 100 games. Does the Unseen team deserve to win because of luck?

Really now? I agree that the balancing of the role you just provided ia very flawed, but this role is the embodiment of evil tactics: Making chaos. There’s a difference between blatantly overpowered and strong in good hands. If you can’t manage your abilities with this role, YOU WILL LOSE.

Rarity should not be used as a balancing measure. Having an extremely strong class like this be counterbalanced by just having it not appear in games most of the time is not the same as balance.

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Honestly it just make the class even better because people won’t expect it.

How is this class extremely overpowered?

Extremely strong ≠ extremely overpowered, for a start. I’m not saying it’s unreasonable, I just meant it has a heavy kit and thus shouldn’t be counterbalanced with rarity. Additionally, you said yourself that “This is a very powerful role to the Cult that can be game changing”. But to go into further detail:

  • Night and Occupation immunity combined is already powerful, usually only given to classes that need it like Possessor or Scorned. Both need it to protect themselves from a loss (that they probably wouldn’t deserve) on an otherwise mediocre kit. In comparison, this class would benefit from these passives to claim something like Priest if they happened to be attacked, further strengthened by the rest of their abilities.

  • Mastermind’s passive, but for a cult member. To be fair, both suffer from the fact that they are powerful classes and must stay alive for as long as possible. However, the reason the Mastermind has this passive is because they are the converter (that after n3 can’t be replaced!) and have to stay alive for that reason. Comparatively, this class needs to stay alive so it can give it’s powerful buff to it’s teammates.

  • I’m seeing a pattern. Next we have Distraction+ in both terms of uses and length. While the ability isn’t particularly powerful in it’s own right, I consider it icing on the cake.

  • Next up is Strings of Corax+, with infinite uses, but a cooldown. You can choose to use it every night you can, making people think an Invoker spawned with the Cult Leader, or use it after you’ve exhausted all your uses of Path of Lies.

  • Finally, is the main reason this class is so powerful in my eyes. You have a targetable In The Shadows+/Frame+. With this ability, sporting four uses, you can choose to either make sure the Cult Leader never gets found until you’ve had 1-2 chances to convert, aka before it’s too late, or use it to frame people and make people think the accuser is Scorned if it ends up working in your favour. All this, on top of already being “loaded” in terms of abilities.

All of this combined makes this class extremely powerful, but since I’ve gone into this much detail, I can explain the cons of the class that also make it unfavourable.

  • The fact that you won’t turn into the Cult Leader is really bad for the Cult. If you are at a point where it is only you and a Cult Leader and they die, the Cult is over essentially. With no killing or conversion power in the kit, the only way for you to advance your faction is to either be lucky enough to control an NK to do the killing for you (every second night no less), or get lucky with executions long enough that you manage to win. Neither of these situations is very likely to get you a win unless its late game, meaning that if the original Cult Leader happens to die before he can convert, the game is almost surely over for you, and you would sit around waiting until you lost.

  • Unable to be sacrificed is less of a problem, but it is fairly likely that you would come across a game once in a while where the Cult Leader would prefer uses of Eradicate over having you around to do something every now and then, but would be unable to all because of an arbitrary rule. Putting unable to be sacrificed there only damages cult’s chances, and is essentially saying “The Cult Leader can’t be trusted to not Eradicate someone useful.”

  • The fact that it’s flavoured as Corax and not just a different cultist. Corax is a god, not just a fairly weak (if we’re speaking in the terms of godly powers) cultist. While this is only my opinion, I didn’t like the idea of Pestilence in ToS because I thought it was silly then, and definitely wouldn’t want to see the same flavouring in ToL.

  • It shouldn’t be a Special type. It’s somewhere between Offensive and Support, leaning Support, but it definitely isn’t Special.

  • My initial point that rarity does not equal balance. Having this extremely powerful class only mess with the balance of some games does not mean it’s balanced.

So yeah, I had a few problems with the class. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Solid analysis, Ashe.

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So in addition to renaming it here is a brainstorm of potential ways to balance it.

1: Remove protective eye and Occupation immunity. The night immunity has an actually legit reason to exist but the other 2 don’t

2: Nerf total paralysis. You could reduce the time or number of uses.

3: Make puppeteer not give feedback (Im assuming that right now it will tell you if they were immune.)

Once this class is properly balanced I would make it offensive and have it spawn instead of the invoker. (Starting invoker is useless).

I don’t think this class is fundamentally broken. It just needs some work.

I just have one problem with your suggestion. Total paralysis has 3 uses and 15 seconds isn’t that much :confused:

Better now everyone?

I still don’t like protective eye. But other than that it’s good. (Btw I was fine with 4 uses of path of lies). Having protective eye means that you would need to use it on yourself to not get detected randomly but that would mean you would give up later uses. Removing protective eye adds strategy and counter play.