Exe two alchs claims
No physicians
The prince will learn next time
No, itās a flavour thing. Effectively they prevent the attack without telling anyone they prevented it (attacker thinks it got through, victim doesnāt know they were attacked).
Oh I was thinking of those awkward moments
Inquistor stabs sorc. Pats himself on the back. She comes back to life. Inquistor:ā¦ur not suppose to be here
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Lmao yeah, thatās definitely a way for the Saint to ruin things.
I was going to add to my previous post that itās important the Ward triggers on death and not attacks so that it covers things like poison, bleed, magic missile, Prince execute and other edge cases.
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Basically how to win step by step guide
1.Never Vote.
2.Try to talk everyone out of exing anyone on stand the more people alive the better
3.Win
Itās at the awkward state of not wanting anyone to die but it needs killers to be alive.
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Yeah and that goes directly against the current meta, so itās a breath of fresh air, plus it tends to favour evils more than BD, since BD killing classes are very few. And hey, if we canāt exe people during the day, maybe Knights are actually valuable BD classes now! And also fodder for the Saint to win.
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One thing to note is that the Saint loses all abilities upon winning and may leave the game at no penalty, so them getting a quick win (like a Scorned or Fool that plays well) doesnāt necessarily adversely affect the game after the first few days. BD and evils can duke it out after the saint does their thing.
Thanks for the tip! I fixed the formatting, got rid of the execution penalty and replaced Voice of Silver with Gaze of Silver. Also relaxed the voting restrictions. The Saint doesnāt have to pardon, but cannot vote to exe.
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The concept is pretty good, but I still have two issues with this class.
- This class is too strong and BD-sided as it can basically win by finding and blocking the Assassin/CL or NK for three nights straight. Heart Sight should only work once per target or have other limitations as otherwise this would be extremely frustrating for Evils to play around.
- The Saint fails the test for a good neutral role. A good neutral must only have 2 out of the following 3 attributes.
A) Be useful for BD. -Entire shtick is preventing night kills, which help BD far more than Unseen/Cult/NK.
B) Unable to be converted. -Since you didnāt create an Unseen version, Iām taking this as a yes.
C) Easily confirmable. -Is unique and Sacred Lunar Seal can be used as a means to confirm themselves.
Iād personally remove its unique attributes and also the prevention on Sacred Lunar Seal. 2 weaker Saints add more claim-space for evils without making them too overbearing and thatād be better than the current single strong one of your iteration.
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Thanks for the feedback!
1:
Iāve noticed people underestimating the difficulty of actually finding the correct targets. You find a Hunter thinking heās assassin/NK, go Heart Sight him, you die to his bear. You find Inquisitor/Paladin/Prince/Knight, you waste a use of your abilities because they donāt kill every night.
Yes, you could find the NK/assassin/CL early and stay on them to try and win, but the killer can choose to not attack. If you know a Saint found you, you can make them question whether to stay on you and waste their limited uses of Heart Sight or move on to another target, because Heart Sight does not occupy unless you choose to attack. As the CL, you can convert instead of Eradicate. As Possessor, you can Puppet Strings instead of Possess.
The other evils that kill have to either do nothing or they can try to keep attacking to gain occupation immunity. Itās not perfect, I agree, but itās not any worse than being found by a Butler/Drunk and occupied 3 nights in a row.
2:
Well, since no Neutrals can be converted (and it seems to be norm from now on) can we really have that as a criteria for a good neutral role? I did take into consideration C, and I tried to balance giving them a defensive tool so as not to die too early vs. not making them too easy to confirm. I wouldnāt mind weakening Sacred Lunar Seal to simply granting Death Immunity for that night, since it fits better with a NK/MM claiming it, but not preventing visits means Investigative classes can check them, which can also help confirm them.
Making the Saint not unique feels like it would bog down the game too much, with way too much death prevention and occupation. Even if you weaken the Saint, their whole shtick is preventing death. Having 2 of them plus whatever healers, knights, drunks, butlers and mercs you might have can end up with a blockade where nobody dies for 3-4 nights and weāre back to having to execute during the day to make any progress.
Iāve noticed people underestimating the difficulty of actually finding the correct targets. You find a Hunter thinking heās assassin/NK, go Heart Sight him, you die to his bear.
Heart Sight shouldnāt be classified as an attack, so a bear shouldnāt kill the Saint. Plus, with proper scumreading a Saint can basically find an evil early on, especially with the ability to check 2 people per night, and repeatedly block them three nights in a row. This would make it far too much of a pain for evils in general to work.
Yes, you could find the NK/assassin/CL early and stay on them to try and win, but the killer can choose to not attack. If you know a Saint found you, you can make them question whether to stay on you and waste their limited uses of Heart Sight or move on to another target, because Heart Sight does not occupy unless you choose to attack. As the CL, you can convert instead of Eradicate. As Possessor, you can Puppet Strings instead of Possess.
Typically if an attacker got the prevented/occupied message they wouldnāt automatically assume that theyāre being occupied by a Saint, so thereās no reason why they would waste a night just in the case for that scenario.
The other evils that kill have to either do nothing or they can try to keep attacking to gain occupation immunity. Itās not perfect, I agree, but itās not any worse than being found by a Butler/Drunk and occupied 3 nights in a row.
Butlers donāt have any way to detect if a person actually can attack or not so theyāre not like the Saint. Drunks typically out their attackers the beginning of the day as they have no reason to keep them alive and itās less frustrating for Unseen/Cult and better for BD that way.
Well, since no Neutrals can be converted (and it seems to be norm from now on) can we really have that as a criteria for a good neutral role?
Yes. A hypothetical neutral that can be converted would balance its confirmability out as thatād give reason for BD to want to execute them. A neutral with all 3 checks could just claim d1, confirm themselves in the next day or two, and then basically just AFK and nobody will bother them anymore ala the Alchemistās early iteration.
I did take into consideration C, and I tried to balance giving them a defensive tool so as not to die too early vs. not making them too easy to confirm. I wouldnāt mind weakening Sacred Lunar Seal to simply granting Death Immunity for that night, since it fits better with a NK/MM claiming it, but not preventing visits means Investigative classes can check them, which can also help confirm them.
Except that this would specifically require both a Sheriff/Paladin and a Princess to check on them to make sure they are both NS and Special/Investigative. The current iteration basically just needs for anyone to visit the Saint the night they use SLS to confirm themselves.
Making the Saint not unique feels like it would bog down the game too much, with way too much death prevention and occupation. Even if you weaken the Saint, their whole shtick is preventing death. Having 2 of them plus whatever healers, knights, drunks, butlers and mercs you might have can end up with a blockade where nobody dies for 3-4 nights and weāre back to having to execute during the day to make any progress.
Itās entirely possible for the game to already spawn a total of 3 Alchemists(Healers with night immunity), Sellswords(Occupation and prevention on most visits) and Mercenaries(One-shot immunity for a player and prevention on visits). Up to 2 Saints replacing that would not bog the game down for too long, especially as a game with 2 of the same kind of neutral isnāt common at all.
The entire point in removing the Saintās uniqueness is to make them a better fake claim for evils, as the class right now has pretty good conditional retroactive confirmation in HS and SLS while also being too BD sided for them to want to execute you.
All right, fair enough.
Changelog:
- No longer unique.
- Sacred Lunar Seal rework:
a) Only grants Death Immunity.
b) No longer protects against Order Execution.
c) Protects against Empowered Reap but reimburses 2 souls to the Reaper if they attempt to Empower Reap you while you use this ability. - Heart Sight cannot be used on the same person twice in a row.
I hope this addresses all the feedback?
These 2 statements are contradictory. Does it grant death immunity or does it prevent attacks? Chose one and still with it.
2 max of a class that is not unique I think
Tho I do remember hearing noble is an exception and can it spawn more than 2 of him
Those statements are not contradictory at all. Death Immunity covers more than attacks (since it covers bleed/poison and bear/circle of death, none of which are attacks) and the Empowered Reap bypasses not just Death Immunity, but also Occupation and Visit Prevention. The mechanics are not really related at all, so thereās no contradiction.
Sacred Lunar Seal is a Hide that works against Empowered Reap, thatās it.