[Class Suggestion] The Senex

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#1

This role was partially inspired by psychoneirik’s Accused. The Senex is a neutral who has a varied goal of either requiring the BD faction to win, ergo siding with them, or requiring them to lose, thus allowing him to side with either the Unseen/Cult or the Neutral Killer. The main idea behind the Senex is that since he is automatically confirmed via Teachings, but only himself knows his alignment then he must be dealt with social deduction and social deduction only. If he ends up being aligned with the Blue Dragon and is executed on trial or by the Prince, then the faction will pay heavy penalties for it. However his abilities allow him far more potential then only a vote and if evil he must be dealt with as soon as possible.

The Senex

Neutral Support
Mentorship (Passive) - The Senex is immune to death at night and will have a 50-50 chance of starting aligned with the Blue Dragon or against them. If the Senex is aligned with the Blue Dragon, then he will lose his night immunity after the third night.
Beloved Mentor (Passive) - If the Senex wins with the Blue Dragon, his attributes will be:

  • If he is executed on trial, then all Blue Dragon-aligned players who did not vote for a pardon will be occupied in the coming night and will have their immunity to occupation bypassed.
  • If he is killed by a Blue Dragon-aligned killing role, excluding the Prince, then they will die of guilt.
  • If he is killed by the Prince, the Prince will lose all of their executions.
  • If he is executed by the King, then the King will die of guilt if he is also a member of the Blue Dragon.

Teachings (Day) - Hides the user’s whispers for the day. - Infinite uses
Mind Reader (Day) - Learns the target player’s alignment. If they are not Blue Dragon then the Senex learns of their exact class. Can only be used if the Senex is against the Blue Dragon and can be used in the same day along Teachings. - Infinite uses
Traditional Herbs (Night) - Heals a player, preventing them from dying to night and cures poison and bleeding. The target player will also be seen as a member of the Blue Dragon to faction checks. Cannot be used on the same player two nights in a row and can be used on the user. - Infinite uses
Ancient Tonic (Night) - Causes the targeted player to be night and occupy immune for the current night allows them to bypass healing, night immunity, occupation immunity, and redirection immunities. - 1 use
Has a random goal of either A) See the Blue Dragon win or B) See the Blue Dragon defeated.

  • Neutral, survival, you know the drill with Mentorship. The BD-aligned Senex loses night immunity so scum can counter him.
  • Beloved Mentor is needed as without harsh penalties for executing a BD-aligned Senex, people will obviously throw social deduction away in favor of Neuts Out.
  • As much as I hate easy confirmation, Teachings is necessary as the entire point of the class is to deduce the proven Senex’s alignment, and also helps coordinate with evils. Adding fakeclaiming here would just complicate issues and Senex fakeclaims would be a pain to get rid of due to the risks associated with executing a real one.
  • Mind Reader is used to find allies for his night abilities. Both night abilties should be usable in the same day to prevent the court from demanding the Senex to always use Teachings to prevent using Mind Reader.
  • Both his primary and secondary night abilities have effects of similar strength to scum and BD alike, allowing him to support well regardless of his alignment.
2 Likes
#2

There must be a way to mechanically confirm him as not BD aligned because it’s not fun to execute someone acting anti BD

Or to not execute them because they are acting BD but then to find out that they are against you…

Like show him up as cult/unseen after N3 or so…

#3

Latin lessons are worth it

Man we are sus of an old man

why this

#4

Wut?

#5

senex means the/an old man in english

#6

The point here is to use social deduction to find out their alignment by their actions and words rather than mechanics. If they did act BD to the point where everyone fell for their ruse, then they kind of deserve a win

I meant the character archetype when I designed this role.

#7

It does say Wise old man, maybe that’s just a coincidence tho

#8

This is basically allies king reskinned into a “neutral” class, but instead of extra voting power he gets more powerful guards and some skills that are more suited into benefitting evil.

He is confirmable as Senex with Teachings, as was King by virtue of being king.

He has Mind Reader, which is a daytime allies that is stronger if king is evil.

He has Traditional Herbs and Mentorship, which is overall an upgraded guards, since he “guards” himself and can do more than guard someone else.

Lastly he has Ancient Tonic, which counts as a replacement for the King’s voting abilities.

My thoughts on it are that I miss allies king, so I would like this class, however in its current form it is extremely overpowered. Beloved Mentor is unnecessary, they should have to work hard to show that they are BD if they have a daily unoccupyable faction check that does not compromise any other ability of theirs like not being able to guard for old king. Teachings should be private matter clone instead. It is confirmable in the same way, but this allows him to work with evils more freely. Just imagining an evil king with a sorcerer a sellsword and an evil Senex is a nightmare though. He should most definitely be unique too.

Largest issue is how swingy he would be, because of his power level. Do you not think that the alignment of the Senex has way too much of an influence on who likely would win the game?

#9

He can heal/tailor and give a shot of 2 night and occupy immunity along with guaranteed night actions. His kit balances out towards pro and anti BD. His kit benefits evils more than the EK as the EK doesn’t really have anything to help evils at night.

Only if he’s evil, otherwise he only has Teachings. The evil version needs Mind Reader to work otherwise he won’t have any targets for his night abilities as scum won’t out themselves unlike BD.

Mentorship’s immunity goes away if he’s BD, so he’s vulnerable to evils attacking him mid-late game and later.

The issue here is that if there is nothing to discourage BD from mislynching him then people are just going to lynch him for no reason because of neuts out. The entire point of the Senex is to be a class that like the King, needs to have its motivations deduced via social deduction instead of being mechanically confirmed.

This issue should be taken with the role generator. Right now King+Neuts is still extremely swingy as a game can have a EK+Sorc+Scorned+SS while another can have a GK+Merc+2xAlchs.

#10

I don’t like prince being punished for hanging a neutral role, even if they are BD aligned.

#11

I’ve done this as a way to prevent people from bypassing the penalty of hanging a BD-aligned Senex by using the Prince. If there’s a way to safely execute a Senex without having the penalties if they’re BD-aligned, people will do it.

#12

At least keep the hunter part of getting rid of him

It’s stupid you can’t get rid of it.

#13

The Hunter can, it’s just that if the Senex is aligned with the Blue Dragon then he’ll die of guilt the same night the Senex dies. I loosened up the penalties a little so it isn’t overbearing to BD if they need to get rid of a poorly-playing BD-aligned Senex.

1 Like
#14

Actually perfect plan to get rid of it.

Possessor controls him into the bear ez

1 Like
#15

Wait what about NK

:frowning:

#16

The anti-BD Senex can side with either the NK or the Unseen.

#17

Considering it was the Poss that did this, there would be no penalty on the Hunter’s part.

#18

Yeah, but why is the punishment for hanging Senex worse than hanging a BD? It would be enough to make prince lose their executions like any other bd.

#19

If getting him killed through lynch makes you so worried. He can just fake a Physician or Alchemist claim. I think you are giving him way too much power and significance. You also buff the evil version a lot if BD gets penalized so much for getting rid of him. Beloved Mentor should just be completely removed in my opinion or be similar to the GK’s/fool’s passive.

I mean there are plenty of games where a Good King Order executes the prince. You think something similar will not happen with the Senex? I would not want to get penalized for bad Senex play so heavily.

You also haven’t addressed how swingy it is. This can be an extra number for the evil faction with a frenzy like ability, can hide MM, can vote with them, can identify neutrals so they do not get converted/killed, can heal them from NK/king OE/knight attacks and he has death immunity himself.

I made the comparison with the old allies king, because to me you just altered it slightly and made it a neutral spawn with about equal power level. It should not be on the same power level as a king, because they typically are elected and are a huge focal point in throne of lies. Adding another “king” just dilutes that. Starting king is also already what you want, which is a class that has to be scumread to find out alignment.

#20

Way too op when scum aligned and gives to benefit in lynching him cause he’s a neutral and not actually apart of scum. Other people had some decent feedback in fixing him. 4/10