Court Wizard and Priest [Fusion Collab]

Feedback/Suggestions
#161

Tl;dr at the end.

I’ve been thinking a lot of Empower as the main CW ability and I just can’t bring myself to support it. The ability just does so much and so little at the same time, I don’t think it will actually solve any problems currently plaguing the CW.

The biggest problem with Empower us its reliance on others. In a game on deceit, of course not every claim will be trust worthy. The sheriff or butler claim could just be an unseen or cult member and using you to stop more key bd roles. While you can just say it’s good on the evils for tricking him, this will lead to a lot of uselessness feeling when the CW realized later they were tricked.

Which leads me to my next point of the ability feeling useless. Basically every single ability in the game gives some kind of feedback. Whether you find an unseen as sheriff, or physician finds no one attacked their target or even finding yourself prevented from visiting someone. Something happens. But with Empower, you get no feedback. It doesn’t help that multiple classes (Prince, CW, physician, noble, mystic, and Hunter) all don’t benefit from Empower at all. This leaves only knight, butler, drunk, Princess, sheriff/paladin, and observer. Add in investigators only benefit from it if they happen to be targeted by illusionist or run into a fool or scorned. Not situations that happen every single game. With butler and drunk, you’re at least ensuring they occupy their target and knight gets an assured kill (assuming he attacks evils) but the CW is still left in the dark about all of it. Did his ability help any? Did your target actually do anything that night? CW just doesn’t know.

Now granted the ability has the potential to make huge plays, such as csing or occupying the possessor or mm. But i feel these situations will be so far and few between, that it won’t matter. This situation requires both a CW and a butler/drunk/knight and a night immune target. If even one of these requirements aren’t meant, the ability will have been useless.

Tl;Dr The game needs to be in such a simple game state, that the CW knows his target is compatible with Empower and that using Empower wouldn’t have already given them the same results. The ability has fringe application at best, and will do absolutely nothing to make CW more interesting to play.

1 Like
#162

Alright, then replace that one ability with something and problem solved?

Or do you have more issues here, because I’d love to hear about all of them as well. :+1:

#163

I really dont think boslof plans to return priest other then that abiltiys for cw and sage love them

#164

This isn’t really like the old priest tho. I think it’s just human thinking. If it was probably called something other than priest you would have probably never thought about it

1 Like
#165

But doesn’t that just ignore the whole point of this? To create a “more fun” CW? Your suggestion here was to switch out Magic Barrier with Empower. I feel that takes away from the whole point. But I have ignored the the Sage and Priest reworks, so I’ll share a few thoughts over them.

One more bit with Sage, I feel Ice Ward is a bit random. Like it feels like it doesn’t belong with the kit. Most day abilities have utility to work only during the day or in a few evil classes case, powering up night abilities. I mentioned this with someone else, but I think Empower could be decent as a limited day ability. But that’s besides the point.

Mimic is interesting, but I swear I remember hearing Boslof mention that an ability like that would be difficult to code. I’m sure it’s not improbably and would be fun, but overall I don’t think the Sage even needs to be changed. Wall of Fire is one of the strongest Unseen abilities, and using Tornado is a situation where you can discuss with two other players optimal usage is amazing.

On the Priest, I like the idea of day ability prevention. I am also definitely a fan that it is a night ability, as that stops it from being a rush during the day to pick your day ability before another player. I do believe it’d be better if the ability just locked them out of their day ability, rather than make it have no effect. You could, in theory, use this to “prove” you’re the priest, but it’d have to be used on someone with day abilities, and I think only about half of BD, if not less, have them. This, in theory, makes the prevention ability seem almost useless, however it being limited makes it a more thoughtful ability in the player’s mind.

The Heretic seems a little weird. None of the abilities seem particularly useful. Other than jail or telepathy, I don’t think there’s a day ability you really need to locate the person. Also, both of the night abilities seem nearly useless for Unseen. What day abilities are you protecting your team from? Best I can think of is Chilling Touch? No other day abilities target the unseen. Unless, of course, it stops jail. Other than that, The Heretic seems horribly underpowered and almost useless to the unseen. Unless I’m missing something.

#166

Not really? If I think of or see a suitible replacement, I’m entirely open to changing it, and I do think you’re underestimating the ability a little bit. You do definitely have some good points, but that’s what the point of this thread is - to discuss problems with the idea as presented and to find solutions and make improvements.

That’s definitely fair. I would be entirely open to just leaving Sage as it is.

Honestly I’m still worried about its ability to prove you’re the Priest. All you need is a Noble. However, you can try and avoid this by asking for a night and killing whoever you supposedly targeted, so it’s neither instant nor unable to be countered.

I’m not sure how often we measure the strength of an ability based on how much it can do harm to players of the same faction. Plenty of scum have day abilities, which is really the point, so who cares if not that many of your allies do? :stuck_out_tongue:

It does stop jail. So Heretic allows you to directly harm the Prince, if you know who he is. Also, you get a daychat with your fellow Unseen, which I think will be useful, even if the fast-paced nature of the game prevents daychat from being radically game-changing.

#167

I’m not sure what I want to fix Empower other than turn it into a limited ability. I understand it has uses, but I don’t think I’m underestimating it at all. I mean, you can Empower a butler all game and if he only ever targets the Assassin and Reaper, what’s the point? Sure you can indefinitely stun them, but by the time you recognize they’re who they are, I feel you’re already set to put them up on trial, rather than grief them into not getting to play the game.

I think confirm able abilities are fine. Something like Tornado is somewhat confirmable as well, yet we’re leaving it in. And if the Priest is wasting time using it on allies to “confirm” herself, she’s not getting the utility to stop evils.

I think I lost my train of thought here, and I can’t remember where I was going with it, so I’ll ignore this bit.

I am definitely for anything that nerfs the Prince, be it as rare as this class may be. However, I believe the day chat will be rather boring. Like you could use it to plan out stuff during the day, however most planning needs to be done at night. There are some fringe things like the MM finding out the class of another player or the assassin explaining his target was immune, but I believe the daychat will be underwelming. That being said, it doesn’t define the Heretic, so it’s doesn’t need to be that powerful.

#168

It’s technically strategy rather than griefing if there’s a concrete reason why your side should do it. It’s actually massively OP in that scenerio. If there’s a MM. a converted, and an assasain. NK is dead in this hypothetical. You only know the assasain’s identity. you’ve got no idea who the MM and converted are… lets say it’s 4v3 at this point, you could kill the assasain, The MM will convert a BD, the former converted is now an assasain killing. and the new numbers are 2v3 BD lost.

Or you could hold the assasain, try to find the MM. Assuming no phys the worse he can do is poison. Unseen is full so MM can’t convert. if you figure out the MM
4v2 (1 bd poisoned, MM executed)
4v1 (2 bd poisoned, hopefully converted executed now)
3v1 (one bd died from his poisoning again assuming no phys/alc)

#169

You think cutting the number of uses will make it a better class?

#170

Now that you’re here, plz feedback

#171

I’m not denying there is utility in the idea. But look at that scenario you just presented. How often, if ever, do you think games will end in a situation like that? We can talk forever about these golden scenarios, but most games will never reach that. Add in we’re looking at the ability being the primary utility of the CW.

#172

Not exactly. I think the ability would be better as a secondary or day ability with limited uses. It does have interesting possibilities, but it also leads itself to be useless the majority of the time. Moving it off of the main ability and limiting can help players see “Okay, this ability is situational since I’m limited in uses” rather than its current main ability, infinite uses where they’d use it on anyone.

#173

So then are we removing Tornado and adding a new “primary” ability, swapping it with Ice Ward, or what?

Because I need more than “something else might be better” lol

#174

Personally, just using your idea specifically, I would keep Tornado (or change it to doorway), give CW a different main night ability, and then remove ice ward and replace it with Empower. I’m not sure what night ability I would give him.

#175

Neither am I

@Livicus can chime in too, but until we have something better I think Empower stays lol

also rip Ice Ward :stuck_out_tongue:

#176

That seems like a bit of a logic fallacy. Recognizing problems with the ability and then just keeping it. Honestly I would still want Magic Barrier, but I want to work under your construct, and also assuming Priest makes it back in as is, Magic Barrier would be a bit redundant.

#177

Precisely

So what we have is an ability that is sometimes useless, but quite good if you use it well

Which I don’t see an issue with leaving if nobody seems to have a better non-barrier idea

I could probably think of something if I had a spare hour but I don’t atm

1 Like
#178

Calm down people

Have icecream :ice_cream:

#179

But again, it doesn’t solve the issue at hand, which is CW’s uselessness.You’re correct to say it can be quite good if used well, but the scenarios where it can be used “quite well” are so impossibly few, CW will continue to be a “boring” class. I’d put your CW and Noble in a similar boat where they have powerful late-game abilities, but it requires them to live long enough to see the end game. CW is even worse though, because he requires a combo piece, just to give Butler the Drunk’s happy hour.

At this point I don’t think I can really say anything else, and honestly it feels like we’d be better off just removing CW entirely.

#180

You remove court wizard. You remove sage. You remove sage. Your dead to my heart

1 Like