Court Wizard Rework Survey

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#262

well I should add and clarify… I’m also weighing my decision on avoiding retracts etc… when the inevitable inexperienced masses complain. #1 isn’t bad, it just takes skill and can be detrimental to use blindly, and will be seen as boring/useless to the inexperienced masses, that only come here to complain 15 seconds after a change has been made that they haven’t given a chance to get used to.

#2 I see as digestible to the masses, does not add any huge confirmability issues… it’s an ability that rarely works… but when it does everyone notices and remembers it… similar levels to knight or hunter.

#3. an easier to understand form of empower… however it still fits into the bill of what I’d consider “inevitable retcon”. Using empower blindly, is likely to bite you in the ass (help assasain/cl/reaper bypass occupation etc… could lead to false positives when butler finds occupy immune etc…

#4. I don’t see it satisfying anyone that dosn’t like CW as it is now.

Personally I don’t even see CW as needing to be on the short list for classes that need a revamp. IMO CW is waay near the bottom of classes that need one, king, countering prince meta etc… are way higher up the list IMO. but if he’s near the top because of the inexperienced players complaining that he’s “boring”, I just don’t see the empower forms fixing that.

It’s less of an “I would really want the game to be like this”, and more of a “I’d like the change to actually survive with the community we have”. I also found the no allies 4 guard king the best version of king we’ve had when we played… but I know that’s not an option.

Now if mixing and matching is an option I’d replace version 2’s secondary with say 3 uses of empower. Tornado is a semi-confirmable ability and I’d like to see it go.

1 Like
#263

I actually heavily agree with this comment. I really don’t think CW is boring. Sure he’s not quite as exciting as Sheriff or Prince, but I don’t think every class needs to. The problem ends up being is some class, no matter what, is going to be on the main scapegoat for the problems of the game being “boring”. This leads to one of two problems:

A) the “boring” class is indefinitely changed due to every rework being deemed “boring”

B) the “boring” class is power crept and a new “boring” class takes his place.

I mean even currently, I’d much rather be CW than King, simply because I’m forced to interact with players as CW, while as King I don’t get to do anything since players only out themselves to the Prince. I think it ultimately comes down to personal preference, and no matter what there will be some “bad” class that the community won’t want to play as.

2 Likes
#264

You target a killer role with Mimic on the day. Then at night you use empower on a support role. Besides being immune to occupation, the support role will also be immune to death thanks to mimic.

#265

Honestly, I’m not a fan of type 1 in this state. It’s a fantastic idea - someone who makes everyone better at what they do. That is what the court wizard should be. It just seems… more complicated than it really should be?

Type 2 seems like a very interesting defensive class… you can set up some interesting plays by redirecting attacks around. I just feel like it’s a little boring compared to the others…

Type 3 is probably my favorite conceptually. I just feel like its power, in the grand scheme of things, would be weak if all it does is guarantee abilities succeed. Situations where that would benefit feel like they’d end up being few and far between.

Type 4 sounds fun. The ability to prevent negative effects for a full day/night cycle, negating negative day abilities as well? Along with Ice Ward as a day ability to further protect key BD and a redirection immunity bypassing Tornado? Yes, please! I think it gets my vote.

#266

I’m going to propose this for a CW:

It’s basically Rework 3 with a couple touches of Rework 4

2 Likes
#267

What if I told you you’re both just as correct as each other?

Bos, Orange is entirely correct if or when it becomes time to design ranked mode. If you continue with your current design philosophy designing a competitive game it will fail spectacularly. Orange’s form of balance is NOT assuming the game is only played by good players, it’s assuming that everyone has a reasonable level of competence so that good play is REWARDED because they’re not fucked over by something designed for someone two skill levels below them. I’d recommend you’d listen to him more if you ever decide to implement ranked mode, even if that’s very far in the future.

On the other hand Orange, Bos’s balance is literally the only thing that’s keeping ToL together right now. The entire community would die if all of the changes that, while competitively balanced and viable, everyone would think was anti-fun. For goodness sake Orange. You want Fool removed, and that’d cause literally everyone to hate you. At least try to understand that the game is currently one where good players and bad players play in the same game every single game, rather than a game with a matchmaking system that means that every gmae has more constant skill levels.

That it is all.

3 Likes
#268

I do understand that lmao

I just don’t feel like I also need to be thinking about how I’d balance the game for bad players when Boslof has already shown he is pretty dang capable of handling that side of the equation

I also strongly feel that a Ranked mode would be bad. Because it would force the game to be balanced for the competitive aspect, you’d probably be looking at attempting to swap large portions of the playerbase out. That seems like a bad idea to me.

#269

Well he is partially capable of handling parts of that side of the equasion… but again the fact that CW is anywhere near the top of the classes that are being discussed, tells me the silent complainers are what this part of the equation is attempting to cater to.

I’m in agreement with you on the whole of ranked. Though I also see some potential merit right now with the casual/classic modes. IE it actually free’s up the dev’s to make classic be more balanced for experienced players, assuming casual is enjoyable for the ones that would complain when updates to make the game more conductive to higher skilled play, are actually viable, a ranking system just breaks down in a game of this style… as chance/group has a huge impact on the first divide, and the category you are in has a higher impact on winrate than how well you do in it.

3 Likes
#270

I don’t disagree.

#271

Court Wizard 3 (Generic Empower Based) is the one that seems the most appealing to me. I like the idea of having limited uses of Magical Barrier as a day ability. Keeping the Tornado also provides more survivability and Empower seems much more useful than Barrier when it was as a night ability before.

4 Likes
#272

While I really like the idea of 1, it is a bit complicated as a whole, and rather OP as well.

Can we have the love child of option 1 and 2?

Day Ability - Magical Barrier (4 uses) - Make another player conversion immune tonight
Night Ability – Empower (Unlimited uses) – Empower another player based on class type.
Night Ability - Tornado (2 uses) - Swap players. Bypasses redirection immunity.

Empower will bestow a bonus for that night on the target based on their class type. Note that it can help Unseen/Cult when used on them. A Court Wizard would do good to avoid that just like a Physician would do good to avoid healing Unseen/Cults.

Support: Target will be guaranteed to visit their intended target (Bypasses occupation, redirection, visit prevention, etc.)
Social: Becomes conversion immune
Offensive: Becomes death immune
Special: Will appear as Blue Dragon
Investigative: Will always get accurate results (immune to Warp, Frame, etc.)
Killer: Their attacks cannot be healed

The target will only get a feedback message if the empower was relevant that night.

#273

The problem with this is that the knight would be the only one to benefit from this, since prince execution cannot be healed and hunter doesn’t attack directly (unless you mean that his wolf cannot be healed).

#274

Rip hunter wolf target

Can’t be healed lol

#CwWolf>Prince

#275

In general, the empower for killer classes is the most modest one anyways, since the killer classes (along with the investigative classes) are impactful enough. (The bonusses for social, offensive and support classes are more powerful on purpose)

The high natural impact is especially true for Prince. So, it would almost never affect Prince and that is a okay.

As for Hunter, it wouldn’t affect Wolf, since a Wolf bleeds rather than kills. But I did have Bear in mind.

#276

That sounds like the most useless thing ever still.

First, a killing class must be attacking the hunter.
Then the hunter must use bear.
Then a healer must target the killer.
Finally the cw has to target the hunter.

#277

When reaper does it better lol

#278

I can do one better:
There must be 2 Court Wizards in game
One must target a Healer
The Healer must target a player that is jailed.
The other Court Wizard must target the Prince
The Prince must decide to execute his prisoner

My initial idea was to give no empower to Killer classes. But that seemed a bit lame, so I came up with a very situational buf. In short: The Court Wizard probably does not want to target Killer classes. For instance: A buf on a Butler is far more useful. This is deliberate. Some classes have less use for Empowers since their impact is pretty decent already. Also, this makes the choice who to Empower as Court Wizard far more relevant.

#279

Tbh I think prince doesn’t go through healing lol

#280

He does. Reaper dies to execute

#281

Fair enough