FoL Feedback Thread

[Firekitten]

@Geyde

[Geyde]

@Geyde

@anon97870008

Non-visiting: Does not allow you to bypass Prevention or Jail. Non-visiting is mostly relevant for investigative abilities like the ones from the Observer, or abilities which explicitely interact with visiting abilities (like Hunter’s Mark) (Right now FoL allows non-visiting abilities to bypass prevention or jail? I’m not sure at all.)

While I’m kind of rushed for time, I’ll get out a quick comment

Quick note:
That’s entirely unintuitive.

‘Will not be seen visiting’
‘Does not count as a visit’

It’s an important distinction for effects such as the Priest’s primary and Sorc Detonate.

‘Last Rites (Night) - Use target dead Blue Dragon Non-Killer’s infinite use ability on an alive player. You will only be seen visiting the alive one. You may not use the same corpse more than once - Infinite Uses’
‘Detonate (Night) - All players with a bomb active will explode bypassing death immunity. This does not count as a visit. - 2 uses’

Detonate being able to hit jailed/merc-guarded players has relevancy in several situations, and thus the wording on ‘not count as visit’ being that it bypasses visit prevention alongside not counting as a visit for investigations fits better in the context of the game.

[Geyde]

@anon97870008

Passives are kept. That means, if you had a passive with your BD class, or you gained a passive (e.g. when you get inoculated by a Physician or when you get occupied/redirected/prevented 3 times), you will keep it when you get converted/promoted/voted to king. You still won’t be informed about gained passives. (This e.g. makes the classcards of the converted classes a lot shorter. Right now Passives aren’t kept in FoL.)

This doesn’t hurt to add since it doesn’t change many interactions.
A bit more consistency is fine, but it should be noted for relevant passives

@anon97870008

without being written down.

ToL has passive keeping explicitly written down.

@anon97870008

Prevention: Prevention does not mean „visit prevention“. Prevention is a mechanic very similiar to jail. Prevention trumps everything BUT abilities which are able to be used against a jailed target. (Prevention is a strange thing for FoL to have, because the reason why Prevention exists is to hide the feedback to the player that their target was imprisoned. I have no idea how prevention really functions in FoL, it’s a really strange thing.)

Prevention is essentially a wall around a player’s room that prevents actions from taking effect, regardless of immunities.

[NuclearBurrito]

@Geyde

ToL has passive keeping explicitly written down.

I’d like to point out, that not only is it explicitly written down, it’s also not universal in that not all passives transfer.

For example Hunter’s arrow passive doesn’t transfer, nor do most neutral passives.

[anon97870008]

@Geyde

Detonate being able to hit jailed/merc-guarded players has relevancy in several situations, and thus the wording on ‘not count as visit’ being that it bypasses visit prevention alongside not counting as a visit for investigations fits better in the context of the game.

Detonate does hit the jail not because it’s not “non-visiting”, but because it’s innate to Sorc bomb (NK attacks usually have interesting interactions, and Detonation is not only non-visiting, you don’t even have to select the target player. If you want to make it more clear, write it in the description of Detonate that it can bypass prevention/jail).

@Geyde

ToL has passive keeping explicitly written down.

I’m only asking to write the basic rulings of FoL explicitely down, because it’s definitely unintuitive for ToL players, and I’m trying to train new hosts.

@Geyde

Prevention is essentially a wall around a player’s room that prevents actions from taking effect, regardless of immunities.

That’s flavor, not an explanation I can show my newbie hosts

@NuclearBurrito

For example Hunter’s arrow passive doesn’t transfer, nor do most neutral passives.

An excellent point I missed indeed.

[Geyde]

@anon97870008

Detonate does hit the jail not because it’s not “non-visiting”, but because it’s innate to Sorc bomb (NK attacks usually have interesting interactions, and Detonation is not only non-visiting, you don’t even have to select the target player. If you want to make it more clear, write it in the description of Detonate that it can bypass prevention/jail).

Having special case scenarios generally is a nightmare to understand for people coming in from everywhere.
I’d just make it consitent with ToL’s ONLY nonvisiting ability by making it bypass visit prevention (since I believe Inq lost the hidden visits), and since Priest’s/Sorc’s wording would clash in a nonlogical way otherwise.

@anon97870008

I’m only asking to write the basic rulings of FoL explicitely down, because it’s definitely unintuitive for ToL players, and I’m trying to train new hosts.

I wouldn’t exactly call it unintuitive (considering the explicit mentioning of transfers still applying here), but I’m working on writing down some more clarification for the explicit interactions.

@anon97870008

That’s flavor, not an explanation I can show my newbie hosts

That’s an explanation on how it works in interactions.
Occupy immunity in flavor wouldn’t work on a literal wall.

[anon97870008]

@Geyde

(since I believe Inq lost the hidden visits)

Fun fact: Yes, Inq lost his hidden visits, and this removal was a buff, not a downgrade ^^

[Solic]

@anon97870008

Also having a changelog/patch notes thread for FoL would be great for easy referencing.

I made the starting post a wiki. If anyone has time on their hands and would link all changes (I will do the first one to establish a format) in the OP, I will unwiki it and add a link to any new announcements. I just don’t see the benefit of knowing what changes were done like a year ago and if you just want to know the recent changes, you can indeed just read the latest posts. Classcards are always up to date, so they can always be referenced. That is what’s important.

@anon97870008

Passives are kept. That means, if you had a passive with your BD class, or you gained a passive (e.g. when you get inoculated by a Physician or when you get occupied/redirected/prevented 3 times), you will keep it when you get converted/promoted/voted to king. You still won’t be informed about gained passives. (This e.g. makes the classcards of the converted classes a lot shorter. Right now Passives aren’t kept in FoL.)

I think this was addressed sufficiently in that we and ToL both just explicitly write down if a passive transfers and we just have less cases where it does transfer. It’d be more confusing to write down that a royal blood Princess stays royal blooded upon class change to Duchess, because it wouldn’t transfer to Assassin consequently. This is necessary in ToL, because occupy/redirect immunity is discoverable and for instance old royal blood (where you had priority in stepping) also is and you cannot hold your claim if you get changed from Servant to Assassin and found as non occupy immune/redirect immune. In addition cult alts allow passives to be taken, so that automatically means that passives do not just transfer. (although I will note that occupy/redirection immunity from Drunk/Butler might need a cult alt as it’s useless to be taken at the moment)

@anon97870008

Prevention: Prevention does not mean „visit prevention“. Prevention is a mechanic very similiar to jail. Prevention trumps everything BUT abilities which are able to be used against a jailed target. (Prevention is a strange thing for FoL to have, because the reason why Prevention exists is to hide the feedback to the player that their target was imprisoned. I have no idea how prevention really functions in FoL, it’s a really strange thing.)

Except it does mean visit prevention as that is how it is used throughout the entire classcards. Jailing is visit prevention and in addition occupying bypassing immunity.

@anon97870008

Non-visiting: Does not allow you to bypass Prevention or Jail. Non-visiting is mostly relevant for investigative abilities like the ones from the Observer, or abilities which explicitely interact with visiting abilities (like Hunter’s Mark) (Right now FoL allows non-visiting abilities to bypass prevention or jail? I’m not sure at all.)

It does however allow you to bypass visit prevention and a more special case Jail. You can be sure now.

@anon97870008

King-targetting: The king shows up as „the King“ when investigated (or „your investigation failed“, not sure which is better), and his abilities are non-visiting. The king can be targetted by almost every class ability (exceptions should be marked). That means Investigatives redirected to king are not a problem. (Right now the solution is that you cannot debauch to the king, and you cannot investigate the king. This short ruling here allows to generalize a lot of the “can/cannot target king” abilities.)

I marked all abilities that can target King now explicitly in classcards denoted with a symbol, so it’s easy to tell for players and hosts alike. More abilities cannot target king as opposed to can, so it is better to have a can target symbol than a cannot target symbol.

@anon97870008

Occupation/redirection immunity comes always together, never alone. It’s basically to make classcards easier to remember.

This is how it is.

@anon97870008

Delayed deaths: can be stopped by deathimmunity, including deathimmunity by Hunter’s Bear or King’s guard. (I’m not sure how it is handled in FoL right now.)

That’s correct, a delayed death basically functions like a basic Assassin attack.

@anon97870008

Abilities with limited uses: You should always be informed about how many uses you have. E.g. a Reaper should know how many Souls he has.

Reaper is a bit more special and is explicitly denoted to be aware of its number of souls. Using an ability always uses up that ability regardless if you were prevented from successfully applying it or not. Otherwise it’d devalue things like Distract. Priest especially cannot be blocked by offensives on his Channel night, so that it wouldn’t get screwed over. This ensures that feedback on uses is also not necessary, because at all times you know what your own actions were. If we’d refund things, we also have to inform every class of their number of uses, which leads to knowing whether or not you were blocked in certain cases.

Also limited use abilities get refreshed upon conversion if they have exactly the same name.

@anon97870008

Gained occ/redirectimmunity: If you were at least 3 times occupied, redirected or jailed, you get the immunity to redirection and occupation.

Gained jailimmunity: If you were 3 times jailed, you will become jailimmune and all attempts to jail you will fail.

@Queen_Alfa

After being redirected/occupied/jailed 3 times, you are redirect/occupy immune.

After being jailed 3 times, you are jail immune.

@anon97870008

I’m only asking to write the basic rulings of FoL explicitely down, because it’s definitely unintuitive for ToL players, and I’m trying to train new hosts.

There should always be at least one experienced host in a FoL anyways.

Furthermore, I would like to stress that you don’t need to know the down to the wire super edge mechanical cases in order to play FoL. It’s reads over mechanics and also why players that come from other sites that have never played ToL, should be able to be decent in it. Nevertheless, it is of course better to be completely understandable and intuitive, but I think we should keep this in mind however.

[Kape]

Why can we not Distort Reality to/from King?

[Solic]

It’s Butler’s niche to kill king. No BD killing ability can target king except for that.

[anon97870008]

Distort reality to or from the king is not for attacking the king… since the king is able to guard himself and make himself immune to delayed deaths.
Also Chrono has the niche to exactly be able to kill a king.
But yeah, Distort reality is not an attack. So I don’t see the problem in it.

[Solic]

Then what is it for? Also you don’t distort reality “from” the king. Distort reality basically gives you a vig shot if you have succesfully protected with Time Warp.

[anon97870008]

@Solic

Also you don’t distort reality “from” the king

Why not?

[Solic]

I mean you don’t target King and then like another player.

[anon97870008]

I’m really confused. Why not?

[Solic]

Distort Reality has 1 target. If you have successfully delayed a death it will actually have an effect and count like a regular attack like that of the Assassin. If you have not, it will have no effect.

[anon97870008]

Wait, does that mean you don’t have to visit the original player to be able to save him from a delayed death … this is basically a heal without needing to visit? O_o

[Kape]

Aaaah, I see now.

[Wazza]

Okay there is like one thing that is annoying me about Cult.

[Wazza]

On the Cult Alts Tab.

Can we please like include the sets a person can pick from:

Example:

The Maid

Blue Dragon Investigative
Change Sheets (Day) - Target two corpses. At the end of the night, learn if they were killed by the same player. - 2 uses
Rumor (Day) - Target player will be “last checked” in regards to Matchmake. Cannot be used day 1. - 2 Uses.
Matchmake (Night) - Test if target is compatible with the player you last checked. - Infinite Uses
Your objective is to defeat the Unseen or Cult, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Compatibility:

• Members of opposing Factions are not compatible
• Royals are not compatible with each other
• Members of Neutral Factions are compatible with everyone that they can win with
• The Neutral Killer is compatible with Blue Dragon and incompatible with Cult/Unseen
• The Fool is not compatible with anyone
• The Scorned is incompatible with whoever they mark this night

Converts into The Handmaiden or The Seeker
Cult points: 2 - Each ability costs: 1
Cult Alt:
(Change Sheets): Mithras’ Wisdom (Day) - At the end of the night, learn if a flip has been tampered with and by which class. - 2 uses
(Rumor): Corax whispers (Day) - Frame target player this night. - 2 Uses.
(Matchmake): Cult Compatibility (Night) - Test if target has the same faction as the player you last checked. If not, learn their exact classes.

Cult Group Choices:

(Change Sheets): Mithras’ Wisdom (Day) - At the end of the night, learn if a flip has been tampered with and by which class. - 2 uses
(Matchmake): Cult Compatibility (Night) - Test if target has the same faction as the player you last checked. If not, learn their exact classes.

(Rumor): Corax Whispers (Day) - Frame target player this night. - 2 Uses.
(Matchmake): Cult Compatibility (Night) - Test if target has the same faction as the player you last checked. If not, learn their exact classes.