FoL Feedback Thread

[orangeandblack5]

Werf

[Icibalus]

do you have any actual reasons based on balance? because I don’t want to get rid of NKs that much; i just think it might be our only option.

[Solic]

I don’t think you have a great reason based on balance and they are a pivotal part of ToL, so FoL should take that over. It’s like taking away king. It’s less of a balance headache, but it’s not FoL anymore.

Also I very much dislike the “just discard it” option.

[Icibalus]

i mean, you have no reason to say that i’m wrong
nks have been a massive headache for us and they’re not as unique to FoL as King or Conversion

[Solic]

How have they been a massive headache…

[Icibalus]

King is something I’ve not seen in any other setup, and Conversion works in an extremely unique manner in ToL/FoL, simmilarly to how the uniqueness of having two alternative wolf factions. NKs are just a thing that exists in a lot of rolemadness setups, though.

[Icibalus]

they have a low winrate but high impact, and are extremely EXTREMELY swingy, and have also limited our design space when it comes to buffing cultseen as we have to account for NK’s existence

[Geyde]

K
It’s time to go

[katze]

i cant say i know you well

but welcome back

@Solic

I think NK should always be a part of classic FoL.

i agree but trying a 16p EFoL with no NK is certainly something that may be worthwhile

[katze]

because like it or not my opinions aren’t always right

staying true to traditional ToL is important but… i think experimenting for the sake of balance is better than just stubbornly saying “no keep nk in cause tol has nk”

[Solic]

They have a low winrate? Buff them. No duh that going to 18 players without any additional compensation for classes that need it like ones with limited use abilities or wincon dependent on player number/length of games is going to not go completely smoothly.

You wanted to buff cultseen for killing Prince, you can also buff NK to kill Prince. King/1-2 neuts/NK/Prince. It’s all swingy. FoL is swingy.

Yeah, they are not making things more simplistic for balance. That doesn’t mean the only feasible option is to remove them.

[Geyde]

@Solic

They have a low winrate? Buff them. No duh that going to 18 players without any additional compensation for classes that need it like ones with limited use abilities or wincon dependent on player number/length of games is going to not go completely smoothly.

That wasn’t the reason

[anon97870008]

Well we can try both, daughter. Trying to buff NK to make him worthwhile. If we fail… trying to remove him

[katze]

we just need to give every NK 1-2 mindflayer length passives so nobody actually knows what they do

id imagine testing “no nk 16p” is much easier than “buffed nk 18p” since we’d have to agree on NK buffs

[Solic]

No NK 16 p is super BD-sided.

[Icibalus]

@Icibalus

like we can’t add loads of strongmen (as an example) to Unseen/Cult because that would screw over the NK, and makes the game very dependent on whether the Cultseen accidentally hit the NK and gimp their own KP, eliminating anti-BD KP

@Icibalus

obviously I’m not suggesting strapping bazookas to the factions, but the point is that the more powerful we make Cultseen the more likely it is that this power will turn against the NK, thereby reversing that power gain in a lot of cases.

@Icibalus

what’s especially not good with the strongman example in particular is that if the NK is considered lock BD (in other words, they’ve played spectacularly) that actually increases the chances of cultseen screwing themselves over

@Icibalus

this is a fundamental problem with multiball but with the extreme power offerred to NKs in FoL it’s particularly bad

here are a few examples from earlier in the thread obnoxiously reposted

[Icibalus]

which is why that wouldn’t be the only change we test, obviously. we’re thinking of replacing it with an NE slot, adding more neutrals to the game in general, and nerfing some of the BD.

[Solic]

It’s really not that difficult to balance that out. Give NKs tools above the strongmans that cultseen have.

[Solic]

Which sounds more intensive than buff NKs a bit.

[Icibalus]

which now means that we have to come up with a dumb power-scaling system a la ToS’s attack and defense values, something which is problematic for many reasons