“Do you have your passport?”
I think at this point FOL needs to be passed to someone new Geyde obviously doesn’t want anything to with it someone stressed out about the state of FOL constantly isn’t healthy for the state.
I’d actually argue I like the direction of the new balance changes although I do want starting kings to actually just be removed and d2 elections become a thing.
Neutrals seem to cause some swing but the mostly evil sided neuts (that don’t really want to out) make it less swingy but then visionary lul. (Seriously wtf is that class).
Prince or The Jailor type roles have always been poorly balanced Super PR’s don’t work but might just exist because it would be hyper scum sided… Mystic / Priest see could work obviously Something like Priest could actually be reworked into something non-unique (imo which may sound stupid but using dead players abilities once isn’t demanding or powerful) Mystic obviously having more then one would be stupid for starting claim space.
Healers/healing or bleeds is like meh tbh get unlucky with how many healers spawn it just increases kpn too much. But bleeding is alright at distracting healers for kills ect.
Making half the players VT limits the claim space I remember everyone mass claiming in a FM game before and people found that all the scum decided to claim VT… so literally all the PRs were confirmed. Even without that extreme I’m actually aganist VT spawning in FOL despite honestly being “less stressful less demanding” at times.
That being said I also find it funny that there’s a actual setup full of PR’S (on top of converts). Honestly wouldn’t know whats worse though Open role lists are dumb and can be easily solved and have clear POOLs for POE. (Fol having just RT’s and prince spawning as BD is intresting despite it’s flaws but I actually think that works a lot better).
I mean you could just make everyone VT but that wouldn’t even be FM I don’t think the middle ground of half VT’s half Pr’s works. At least I strongly disagree with any direction to that.
I would look in depth more in the problems of FOL vs Fm but it’s pretty simple that converts are bastard, Random spawning double voter is Bastard, ontop of PR’s being able to do more then one thing like standard mafia roles adds some depth to what you do at night but generally thats not what fm is about it’s about the social aspect While Tos or Tol can be your point and click tiny bit of social interaction Turbo game. At this point looking at what people like about FOL and what people hate about it seems the only direction to go.
The thing that draws me in is the conversion aspect mainly I like the idea of being able to town read someone but suddenly they become scum and you have to pick up on hints of that. Also think the idea of a bunch of PR’s sounds fun but bastard so yeaha I wouldn’t totally give up on FOL balancing it will be a headache and it wouldn’t be easy I’d actually just try vastly different formats and see how they go at this point. (This got way too rambly)
I mean geyde obviously seems stressed about it to the point I don’t think it’s actually healthy
It should or someone currently on balance.
Shows how much by the way geyde wants to get rid of Fol in general that maybe it should be considered before nuking the entire thing.
I think the problem is that we’ve never seen FoL in a form where its’ good design elements can shine, because the bad elements (NKs, Fools, etc.) have continually been overshadowing them.
I think the FoL team is still in favour of an EFoL which blanket removes NK.
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Because I think the problem is that quite a few elements from FoL games are actually popular: people like Alice’s mashes a lot, and her classes are far more simmilar to FoL classes than Mafia classes. But FoL itself is seen as unenjoyable because it’s almost unplayably swingy thanks to holdovers from a different game format.
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Also, nuking FoL is something I am 90% sure is a meme- “turn FoL into marson” has been a joke for a long time,.
I thought fool was reworked into a actually decent class
I’d also agree that nk is kinda bad
not saying remove geyde but I rather he gets replaced instead of the whole get rid of FOL.
Essentially, the core appeal of FoL can be boiled down to this concepts:
- Overall high mechanical complexity, with roles laden with extra abilities
- A voted position that, through an electoral mechanic of succession, can remain in the game for multiple days.
- The existence of conversion as an integral part of the game.
- Two informed minority factions who don’t individually spawn.
I think the problem is that we’ve continually been trying to fix FoL by tweaking the strength of individual abilities, adding or removing classes, etc. And for a while, that works. It changed the game from an unplayable mess to a game that actually has fairly decent winrates but is almost unplayably swingy.
What I think needs to happen now, to make the game good again, is for a total reimagining of the setup. Obviously, simmilarities will remain, but the fact is that because we’ve been tweaking to make things more balanced, we have actually lost part of the FoL identity.
Now, to be clear, I’m not saying that we’ve polluted the glorious ToL with our vile forumer ways. We have balanced the game as well as we could from our current framework. In fact, it is the second and last points that I think has been lost.
What is the point of the King existing? The position is almost begrudgingly discussed. Royal Blood is almost an inconsequential passive.
What, in the end, is the point of Unseen and Cult being seperated? There is no longer any impactful mechanical difference between the two that can lead to interesting dynamics.
If I go ahead with my plan, and attempt to redesign FoL from the ground up, the main changes will be thus:
- The king dynamic will be updated to be more impactful and more interesting in general. I have vague ideas for this, but this bit will take work.
- The Unseen and the Cult will be more differentiated, but they will exist in a setup that has been redesigned to allow for this differentiation.
- NKs won’t exist, and neutral roles will exist in a far reduced capacity, while still being a present factor.
This is probably another dumb project that I won’t finish, but
just pointing it out
oh yeah all vig guilt will be removed or changed into an actually interesting dynamic
just pointing that out
that is my exact intention
hopefully FoL30 will go well enough that I won’t need to rework the entire game from the ground up
i think the base layer is fine, reworking kings i guess (tbh dont see the problem but u do) and trying to make the game work without the additional kpn from nk is prob ur main thing to do
honestly, the King thing is less “fixing problems” and more “making the game more interesting”