There are actually problems right now that will NOT be fixed just with the removal of whispers to and from the king. The most obvious one would be the whispers to and from the prince. He’s provable, unconvertable and guardable. Removing the first two is pretty much a moot point, but making him unguardable should help.
And then there’s a ton of work on other classes because too many of them are too easy to prove or condemn “on the spot”.
Also, let’s face it - there’s a LOT more to whisper meta than just initial king faction distribution. Even if you make the first king 100% untrustworthy all you need to do is:
-Go public as a good royal early on.
-Get covered by scout.
-Get rid of the king ASAP.
And there you have it - the new whisper king is ready to make this a single player game again.
Whispers themselves are great, but only when there’s a (un)healthy dose of mistrust involved.
Hell, right now we could just as well go “whisper to the butler” route, and it would work a hell of a lot more often than not.
-Butler proves himself.
-CW/Paladin keeps him unconverted. Sheriff keeps him under watch. Obs, follows him waiting for cl/mm.
-Knight/dk, or hell, even the prince keeps him alive.
-Everybody whispers to the butler and he starts the mass public execution routine where everyone who deosn’t cooperate with him is insta-sus, all the info from all the investigatives is pulled into one hand and no one other than the butler has to go public thus giving evil absolutely zero info on how to deal with the mess they are in.
Sure there are underwater stones there, especially in an unseen game (where don’t get a paladin to keep the whisper cornerstone’s colours stable), but just a single DAY of whisper meta can make the game for BD if played right. It’s like a role call except WAAAAAAAAY safer.
And while such a play is not likely to just spontaneously occur in a single game if it is strategically viable it WILL sooner or later become the new meta.
It will be a lot like vip games in ToS. You need to really know your stuff to throw a monkey wrench into this kind of system (remember “medusa crusing on vip” move anyone? Ah, good times…) and even then it’s a suicide run which is not something that evil can easily afford and only does when cornered. Meanwhile good will just put forward the next proven butler.
I would like a change to king whispering. I only refuse to whisper king if I am good. I will only whisper if I am bad.
The most important time I don’t whisper king is when I am prince. He asked me for a claim and I was like no. And he was like then I am going to execute you. And I said “Then watch the crowd roar”. And oh did the crowd roar
Considering I could not say a word and WIn as SK I don’t think it is (I have done that before Coven. It was literally my second game in TOS)
Stats are the truth, 65/35 is not a 100% statistical trust. Its a weighted coin flip.
And if Mayor reveals D1 and lets face it there is usually a BG in a TP/TR slot so 100% town with MORE voting power than the king.
IT was either that or a 4 shot faction check, take your pick. Also, it can be said the same for Knight
Well the thing is guards is kinda useless. Sure it gives immunity but it really has a 1/16 chance of taking affect and most kings only use it on themselves.
So? Royal Finger is two votes and can only be used once a day, and if you use it you can’t Decide Fate. Arguably semi-balanced
Side point JESUS YOUR SPELLING. Just a pet peeve of mine it would be easier to understand to me if it was spelled and had decent grammar at least for me
I disagree with this from a lore point. This was the age of absolute monarchies the king had a court, but in the end he could do whatever the fuck he wanted to. Also this would lead to king being a crutch to BD and this would make him basically a Citizen but worse
or we could just KILL WHISPERS it most likely isn’t going to be able to be fixed so lets kill it (inb4 Boslof comes out with a genius patch tommorow and fucking fixes it. Knowing him it will have a 7.5% chance of happening tommorow.)
The idea is that the King is not guaranteed to spawn, so he isn’t as able to be trusted as the Prince or Jailor. Obviously, this isn’t enough, and I believe the devs are looking at changes they can make to help pare this down. And while I agree that whisper metas are dull and easy, it’s worth noting that ToS was in the exact same place from roughly mid-2015 to mid-2017 (which, admittedly, was partially my fault as a well-known early adopter and advocate of whisper games). In my defense, however, I have been pushing to fix whisper games almost that entire time.
Heavily disagree. To this day the Town still has an easier time, and it was only right around the implementation of Coven that things started moving in a decent direction with some good changes to the Spy, role list, etc.
You can still learn lessons from ToS, but it’s far from best-in-class.
Retributionist is still way too strong in ToS though. Although the revived target can be killed, they’ll usually be guarded, so the literal only thing stopping them from gathering claims via whisper is the fear of the Blackmailer buff, which has its own issues.
Both of which are arbitrary and effectively stupid. If you have a Bodyguard instead of a Doctor (a 50/50 shot), you can’t hit the Mayor, and the fact that they can’t whisper was a hastily-constructed band-aid patch for the real issues with whisper games. There’s a reason that other roles can still run effective whisper games, and it’s because this “fix” isn’t really one at all. In addition, the other issues causing whisper games to be effective lead to the rise of VFR soon after.
I honestly can’t fully disagree. I know that they’re working on ways to help with whispers, and I still encourage those efforts, but giving King a kill is something I still don’t agree with. I don’t think it’s necessary to gimp the King, but nerfing them to make the outcome of the game less dependent on the King’s alignment and removing their kill would probably lead to more strategic depth.
Whispers are an issue either way, though.
Ew. I’ve already touched on why this was one of the worst possible solutions BlankMediaGames could have used in ToS, and the same is kind of true here. It wouldn’t be as bad, as the King’s alignment is random and this would make them contacting evils much harder, reducing King-alignment-induced swing, which is a positive side affect, but still not a fan of this at all.
I see where you’re coming from, I really do. However, restricting the King to only be useful for whisper games and nothing else seems backwards and certainly doesn’t fix any of the issues whisper games cause.
Your third route has similar issues, so I won’t comment on it further.
Although I’d be down for 50/50, I have a feeling that it would lead to instantly executing the King as soon as you can in most cases. It may almost be simpler to guarantee that the King is Good and just nerf their power.
This is what happened with ToS, and just making Prince unguardable by Good Kings probably isn’t the answer either. Whispers just need more risk or to be overhauled/removed.
ToS suffered from this issue, but it was much worse, and for much longer. From its launch in early 2014 until roughly early 2017, the large majority of ToS’s classes remained easily confirmable, and without the possibility that they have been converted the game was even worse off.
Due to ToS recently making strides in the correct direction on this front, this is an issue the devs are certainly aware of, and each patch looks to bring us closer to having multiple viable claims. For example, Princess’s Will O Wisp is being changed in the very next update.
I have faith in Imperium42, because they seem both more in-tune with their community than BlankMediaGames, and are pushing out updates much faster. If you keep pointing out issues like these, we’ll likely have them fixed before you know it!
was gonna say that as well