Kape's Overall Unseen Rebalance

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Unseen Changes, ver Kape.
EK - https://forum.imperium42.com/t/starting-king-changes/78177

Assassin:
Apprentice - additionally, if the starting Assassin or MM become King, this passive is passed down once to the current convert.
Distract - will additionally prevent voting.

Duchess:
Bat Eyelashes (inf use): Reveal target players class type and faction.

Handmaiden:
Analyze: (inf use): Target 2 players and get info based on their class type.
If they have the same class type, you will learn their classes.
If they have the same class group (flirt), you will learn that.
Otherwise it will return incompatible.

Herbalist:
Class type changed to Social.

Illusionist:
Mind Blur replaced with Snoop (2 use).

Marshal:
Probe - will additionally be able to target other Unseen, same feedback as Surveille.
Probe - will return “X is Neutral” if you target a Neut class instead

Mastermind:
Foresight (4 use): Learn target players converted class type. If they are convertable, you will additionally learn who they visit tonight.

Nightwatch:
QoL change: Watch Carefully feedback updated to reference other abilities that return class. (Currently its a orange system message and thats ugly)
Watch Carefully - will additionally be able to target other Unseen.

Poacher:
QoL change: Fix the bug where Snare Trap returned multiple occupation messages under certain circumstances.

Timesnatcher:
Dark Dimension (3 use): Disguise target member of the Unseen making them appear not suspicious to investigative checks. Can target self.

4 Likes
#2

What happens to snoop on marshal?

Why?

#3

Observer fakeouts I presume.

1 Like
#4

That’s OP as heck. You can easily find NK with this

#5

How is it that overpowered? Investigative converts do very little in terms of power for the informed minority, because they already are informed, so they better be dang good at their job. Marshal/Handmaiden/Nightwatch have an easy time finding NK too.

2 Likes
#6

Yeah, this needs updated. But why update GK? No starting king is good.

So what happens if this gets passed to the convert because of this, and then they become king?

Will this apply to all forms of “Distract”?

Target Target
Why the Faction? Getting the exact class type is already great by itself.

Seems reasonable. Handmaiden needs a buff anyway.

Why… Social?

Why snoop in particular?

Why?? Unless there’s an Observer / Noble that you need to confirm with (or on the off chance that one of you is Possessed, but then again you would become the assassin if so), this just seems unhelpful.

Doesn’t this already occur?

Why should you (just) learn who they visit tonight?

What does this mean?

Isn’t this a limited use ability? And wouldn’t the case of a noble checking to see if you’re Nightwatch by seeing what you see through Window Peek/Watch Carefully also out you?

Why 30 seconds?

Sure.

#7

It makes Observers less trustworthy and easier to fake by the Unseen. Why not?

1 Like
#8

Why would you need to fakeout the Observer as a Nightwatch? Couldn’t you just… Use Follow instead? And if your counter is the Noble, well Watch Carefully gives the full class, which is different to Window Peek

2 Likes
#9

What about the (just) part?

#10

I’d go as far to say Pretender has an easy time finding NK as well.

1 Like
#11

There is an additional niche of where you fear you might be redirected and you want the additional information in case you do. :smiley: I am unsure of the current status of what exactly can and cannot target fellow Unseen as Unseen, so can’t say more about it really. The point stands however for Marshal, since Snoop is limited use.

1 Like
#12

You’re implying they should also learn who the target get visited by? I’d agree with that. A foresighted target is typically going to be converted in the future at which point they would also just be able to tell them who you’d visit. I also don’t understand why this needs to be conditional on the fact that the target would be convertable and not be able to track/watch upon hitting convert immunes? You’re typically not going to foresight multiple nights in a row, so it would already be difficult to fake an Observer log, even without such a restriction.

#13

Finding class type is fine, but if you’re given the faction AND the class type, you pretty much found someone’s class and the NK will be instantly screwed

#14

As an Unseen, I would first determine what NK it is (If it is sorc, it must go)
If it is not a direct threat, I would let it help cull the Blue Dragon, and then execute the NK as they are “Evil”, assuming I have a full team.

#15

Does your Unseen rework not include Sage becoming an offensive convert?

I’m still not too sure how useful this will be, but I think this is a good buff that doesn’t involve reworking Analyze completely.

So will both of these classes have Snoop?

1 Like
#16

It’s at least less strong than Nightwatch’s Watch Carefully, which gives you instantly the full class.

1 Like
#17

But that’s a two use ability, where Bat Eyelashes is an infinite use ability.

I’m not sure if Bat Eyelashes needs a factioncheck as well, but it is an interesting change.

#18

For this, it seems like a semi nerfed Watch Carefully

#19

They keep it. If they didn’t I would mention it for Marshal.

Gossip confirm, observer confirm + bussing plays.

It’s in line with the other Unseen investigative abiltiies.

  1. I’m changing how King works so I need to change all of them.
  2. If I’m buffing the starting EK I need to counterbalance it with a s. GK buff too.

It can only be passed down once. Remember the Apprentice bug with King step? I want to reintroduce this officially, albeit slightly more balanced.

Yes, all silencing abilities get this.

To make it on par with the other invests.

Why Offensive? The kit is more geared towards being a Social class. Also we have way too many offensive converts.

Because I think it will make Illusionist more desirable and log reading is a fun mechanic that I would like to see more of.

Exactly because of this. Bussing plays.

“Target is Neutral, so you couldn’t discern their class” or something along those lines is the current feedback.

Foresight is overshadowed by any other Unseen invest ability, some even consider it useless, so it gets a nice but not too strong buff.

You know how you get “Target is a Physician” if you WC them, right? Currently it’s an ugly orange system message so I’m updating it to look like the other class giving abilities (ex. Surveille). Also gossip.

Yes it’s limited, it’s for bussing plays with gossip confirmation.

“Target cannot be converted. They visited nobody” - oh, so they’re Prince.
“Target cannot be converted. They visited [dead guy]” - oh, so they’re NK.
TL;DR balance.

I mean, if you have no conversion slot, you’re gonna use it.

Need a support convert to replace it first.
Not a big priority.

Yes exactly.

I would call it a sidegrade. Different class, different function.

#20

My new version of the King doesn’t have point so it’s changed slightly from it’s original version.
Also it’s much more present in the game since I’m planning on giving it to Pretender, Sellsword, Invoker, Sorcerer, so I have to balance it around there being multiple sources. Also 1v1 scenarios, this is Sorc specific actually.