Let's talk about whispers

[Shrimpy]

@Vandalay

I find it hard to imagine the current game, being competitive when we do get newish players out of the mix.

I agree 100%

No way evil stands a chance as-is without noobs in the lobby

[RustyRoo]

The intention is precisely the issue. The intention is to circumvent the anonymous whisper system. It would be a pointless change if this is not recognised at the outset.

[orangeandblack5]

Precisely

It is pointless

[RustyRoo]

@NuclearBurrito

Other examples of things that are meta gaming by your logic include:

Cross referencing logs.

Figuring out that the drunk is converted because he HHed a sheriff

Claiming. Like at all.

Being a Psychic

Basically the entire game outside of the night phase.

This is because under your reasoning it is meta gaming to tell someone something they don’t already know. ESPECIALLY if they back it up with evidence (AKA: Posting your logs. Which definitely contains Information that the other players don’t have and aren’t supposed to have).

… and again you’re ignoring intention.

Other issues:

• logs are accessible, so you’re wrong about that
• deducing the converted drunk is a deduction and within the environment set by the game, so you’re wrong there. The character does have the ability to make that deduction, and the intent is within the scope and ruleset laid out for the game.
• claiming is you personally passing on information to another player, so that’s not meta. There’s also no reason why they have to believe your claim, and reasons why they shouldn’t.
• being a psychic is attaining information legitimately within the world according to the behaviour of that world. You are wrong there too.
• the entire game out of the night phase. That’s so silly I’m not even going to go there. I think you’re leg-pulling with that one.

@NuclearBurrito

This is because under your reasoning it is meta gaming to tell someone something they don’t already know.

Strawman. That’s not what I said, and you know it. It’s information they shouldn’t have access to within the scope, world, environment, ruleset, and wishes of the dev team.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RustyRoo

That’s not what I said, and you know it. It’s information they shouldn’t have access to within the scope, world, environment, ruleset, and wishes of the dev team.

The words stated in the whisper and the words stated in the public chat are by definition known to you and should be known to you. The connection between them is gotten through induction such as with the drunk example.

[Vandalay]

@RustyRoo

The intention is precisely the issue. The intention is to circumvent the anonymous whisper system. It would be a pointless change if this is not recognised at the outset.

The problem is, they aren’t going to punish people for using blatent tools that are given. IE public chat. If you make it against the rules to reffrence anything you’ve said via an annonymous means publicly. you’ll have 3/4ths of the community banned in a week.

If you try to balance things by something they can beat, with the very obvious tools that they are already given, you have to use a different method, not try to force players into submission by trying to moderate it.

Currently there are to my knowledge only 3 rules of public chat that I know of, no spamming, no hate speach, and no directly trying to sabatoge your own or your teams objective, and that last one alone is a rediculous point of contention and arguementation among players and dev’s of what is and isn’t over that line, especially as long as fool exists.

A rule trying to regulate de-anonamizing anonomized messages, will tie up the moderators and players time arguing about… non-stop indefinitely. Most of us in this thread can’t see how you could define a rule for it, in which we don’t also count princes referencing jail speak, psychics identifying themselves with telepathy etc… those are all explicitly defined as anonymous chats, which players de-annonomize with the methods the game provides.

whether or not you can argue a difference, is irrelevant… the fact is that such a difference will have to be argued, over and over again, every game, every new batch of players. ban appeals, suspension appeals etc…

[Aquillion]

@NuclearBurrito

Excluding NK anyway. They are just fucked.

The Mastermind also has a bit of trouble, which is probably the most significant problem. (The starting Assassin and CL, too, but they’re more expendable.)

I feel that the solution to this is to create more claimspace for them, though. The fact is that between the Prince, the Psychic, and the King, ToL is a very claim-intensive game and was always going to be, by design.

[psychoneirik]

I might be in the minority here but I really wouldn’t like whispers to be eliminated or changed drastically. I wouldn’t want to lose the ability to whisper to king either. Although whisper meta is a bit annoying, I have to admit I have more fun with this current meta than with the “allies” meta.

If whisper meta needs to be fixed I suggest a less drastic change, such as buffing noble/aristocrat or adding a whisper reading mechanic to evil classes like NK or MM like it has been proposed by others. Or just change the starting King’s chance, I mean neutral kings usually side with BD so it basically is an 80% chance of good king right now, and they already added the fool mechanic if you hang a BD king so I don’t think the rates should be that high in favor of BD.

One last suggestion (a bit more drastic) would be to make it so non-unique classes have a limit of 3 instead of 2, so if you claim something and there are already 2 other claims you are not instantly hanged.